Requiem for a Hurlbat

News broke this week that Ubisoft was closing down their formerly-known-as-Wolfpack Austin MMG studio. What this means for Shadowbane is inconclusive, but failing someone with an SGI in their basement swooping down and buying the codebase from Ubisoft (don’t laugh, it’s happened before) it looks like the game will close in a few weeks.

Shadowbane had a miserable launch and shortly afterward went through corporate gyrations Enron would envy, with the great majority of the game’s original creators being unceremoniously kicked to the curb. Those that were left did what they could, and you can be sure that at some point, I will pay them the ultimate compliment of stealing some of their ideas.

Still, it was a significant game in that it was uncompromisingly, legendarily PVP+. You could loot your enemies. Hell, you could loot your “friends”. You could burn down your enemy’s homes, sow virtual salt in their fields, and literally make it virtually impossible for them to continue playing (which, it must be said, probably did not help the game’s revenue model). I would argue that given the handicaps that Shadowbane suffered under for most of its life, the fact that it did as well as it did in terms of a loyal playerbase speaks volumes for the viability of a game that doesn’t treat their players as small children.

Sometimes, if you want a virtual world to have meaning, you have to trust players to make decisions about the world they live in. And threading the needle between empowering players to do so and protecting their play environment from being asploded in a fit of mutually assured destruction is… well… difficult. There’s some games that do that better than others, and not coincidentally, are being rewarded for it in the marketplace.

A game with PvP gameplay at its core won’t dethrone World of Warcraft as the King of All Media. But it can easily be profitable. And I’m sure we’ll see more of them in the years to come.

Until then, there’s always memories.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com/ J.

    If the ex-Wolfpack people want to throw a party, they damn well better invite me, just so I can turn it down.

  • http://www.corpnews.com Galt

    Requiem en pax

    and stuff.

    I loved that game. Good luck to the wp guys, and good luck at stealing their ideas lum.

  • http://www.gameproducer.net Juuso – Game Producer

    Don’t know about Shadowbane, but I believe there’s room for both PvP and non-PvP in online games: simply have PvP free zones (or servers) and also areas where PvP is allowed.

  • http://www.psychochild.org/ Psychochild

    To be fair, though, each Meridian 59 shard ran on Pentium Pro 200 MHz servers with 128 MB of RAM at 3DO. It was a bit easier for us to get things up and running.

    But, it is a shame when any game is no longer available. Hopefully someone can figure out a way to let people see what Shadowbane is all about.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com/ J.

    “Don\’e2\’80\’99t know about Shadowbane, but I believe there\’e2\’80\’99s room for both PvP and non-PvP in online games: simply have PvP free zones (or servers) and also areas where PvP is allowed.”

    Yeah, you really don’t know.

  • Freakazoid

    Just don’t copy their idea of getting stuck in a tower and having the unstuck command keep you stuck in the tower, Or losing line of sight from a tiny bump in the sand, or keeping some dev tools on the client end, or…

  • chabuhi

    I miss Earth & Beyond …

  • Neep

    ” \’e2\’80\’9cDon\’e2\’80\’99t know about Shadowbane, but I believe there\’e2\’80\’99s room for both PvP and non-PvP in online games: simply have PvP free zones (or servers) and also areas where PvP is allowed.\’e2\’80\’9d

    Yeah, you really don\’e2\’80\’99t know. “

    Are you implying that UO’s Tramell was not an excelent idea?

    I’m shocked!

  • Eso

    “and literally make it virtually impossible for them to continue playing”

    That makes my head hurt.

  • Soulflame

    And thus do the prospects of PvP MMOGs dim ever so slightly more.

  • Zagum

    Wow, could not see that coming. HAHAHAHAHAHA I have a nice dark place in my heart for the asshats who made shadowbane the biggest clusterF mmorg to date. Having gone through all the hype, marketing spewage, and crappy launch/client/game content, I say a slimmy monkey poo good bye. Shadowbane was the biggest waste of my time. I even left Dark Ages to play that piece of crap. What a mistake that was.

    Anyway, I have been playing Eve for over 2 years almost 3 and it gets better and better. Its not gay elves swinging swords, but it is the most player driven PVP/non-pvp game to date. Raph could learn a thing or two from CCP guys in Iceland. The economy is player driven, the politics are player driven, and the story line gets adjusted based on player actions. If you don’t want to pvp, it has tons of things you can do and carebear.

    EVE is PVP done right.

    Hi, J.

    And yes I hate Shadowbane. (Former Undead Lord GM and Fan Boyie)

  • xzzy

    I’m curious if this is related to Shadowbane recently going free. They even brought up a brand new shard a week or two ago.

    Either the recent activities were a last-ditch effort to resist a coming closure, or it’s just a general strategy to put Shadowbane into “wimpering death” mode, leaving the servers up until no one logs in anymore or the hard drives croak.

  • TPRJones

    They’re still selling the game boxes. I’m tempted to buy one just so I can sue them when they shut down the game they just sold me before the “free month” is over.

    I don’t mind the monthly billing model, but a game needs to stop being sold on shelves at least six months before they close it down, to give people who buy it late time to get their money’s worth.

  • http://gawain.diaryland.com Gawain

    “I miss Earth & Beyond \’e2\’80\’a6″

    DAMN YES.

  • http:///www.corpnews.com Andrew Crystall

    Masochist.

    Anyway, Zagum, which corp in Eve?

  • Zagum

    Arcane Technologies or ATUK. My character name is Zagum Darkfin. Its a sad week for us, after 3 years our beloved CEO called it quits due to real life stuff.

    Before Atuk, I was in Mace, Xanadu and Cornexant.

    http://www.atuk.org/index.php?action=home

    If I have podded you, I hope it was nothing personal. :)

  • http://www.nerfbat.com/ Grouchy Gnome

    The closing of Wolfpack makes me sad on multiple levels, but one thing in particular (directly related to Shadowbane apparently going away soon) makes me the saddest: This provides fuel for publishers to say “A pure PvP game won’t be profitable.” I know it’s not true, as do many others, but seeing a pure PvP game shut down never does well for those of us with that opinion, especially since it was one of the only pure PvP games available in the US.

    I hate calling out someone who’s already been called out, but:

    “Don\’e2\’80\’99t know about Shadowbane, but I believe there\’e2\’80\’99s room for both PvP and non-PvP in online games: simply have PvP free zones (or servers) and also areas where PvP is allowed.”

    I honestly think that games that try to go with the hybrid land model (i.e. what you mentioned above–PvE only in many areas, PvP in many others) have less of a chance at succeeding than one or the other. That is, if you really want PvP to be successful in the game, you need to design it with the intent to have it an integral part of gameplay at nearly all times. If you want to make a PvE game, great, but trying to mix PvE players with PvP players is usually a really bad idea.

  • Patrick McKenzie

    Seems to me the lesson from Shadowbane is “never let your game mechanics allow a state where it is psychologically easier to quit than to continue”. I could see a similar game succeed (as a niche offering, to be true, at least compared to WoW) if they made the fights be over territory/bonuses rather than survival, and somehow made the political game more complex than “one big megaguild zergs server, establishes ability to crush any upstarts”. Heck, Puzzle Pirates achieves that goal as a PVP game (with an audience which is 50% women, no less!).

    I personally like the PVE/PVP distinction nice and clear but, hey, Shadowbane et al aren’t trying to sell to me, and I think there is a certain thing to be said for purity-of-vision as a selling feature. Play2Crush indeed.

  • Boanerges

    I remember back in The Day(tm) when SB was GOING to kill EQ. It was a certainty. Everyone and their dog wanted SB to work and, had they been able to release something then and there (even a steaming pile of crap) it might have really put a dent in EQ back then (when EQ and Trammel were pretty much it). That was what made Lum’s little parodies so much funnier. Alas, when it DID come out it was years late and a few thousand dollars short. I remember reading the launch day gankfest posts which was so screwed up due to bugs (although none as classic as “Taxi to Victory”) and the chaos that d00dz will cause in PvP. I really had to hand it to SB, tho. After watching PvP UO go down in flames, actually trying to build a PvP centered game from the ground up took some serious balls.

    RIP SB.

    In other odd news, is SWG next? Or is Raph just missing Lum…

  • Evangolis

    I have strong opinions, and rarely change my mind.

    Despite all it’s bugs and issues, Shadowbane changed my mind.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com/ J.

    Hi Zagum. Yeah, I remember you. Yeah, you have right to be pissed. No, EVE didn’t launch all that well, but I know it’s doing well now.

  • Ebenezer

    Granted, I haven’t looked at shadowbane in recent memory. But a full PvP environment (minus a tiny newbie nursery) is not pleasant for a lot of players who otherwise enjoy PvP. Not play2crush, play2defend the innocent.

    Some of us like to play good guys, or anti-pks, or whatever you want to call us. If the game is all wolves, a sheepdog is in deep shit. If it’s all sheep, the sheepdog is useless.

    Sheep in the non-pvp pasture. Wolves in the woods. Sheepdogs on the fringe. The sheepdog needs both sides to justify his existence (and some tasty grass under the trees to tempt the sheep to jump that fence occasionally).

    UO as a 50/50 Felluca/Trammel game still worked. Trammel was crowded, so a lot of sheep tried to sneak into Fel. The more Trammelized expansions they added, the less the sheep jumped that fence, until it became basically 2 seperate games. (it also kept all the sheep from defecting to EQ).

    SB was all wolves. So is the “PvP server” in most other games. EVE has it right. The sheep pastures are smack in the middle of the map, with forest all around. Theres lots of tasty grass in the forest, and some good shortcuts from one pasture to another, so theres a lot of sheep where they shouldn’t be, creating lots of action.

    Convincing the sheep and the wolves to play the same game is the key. And no other game will be more than a passing fancy to a sheepdog.

  • Andreas

    Any game that defines itself using the labels PVP or PVE is a failure in my opnion. I’m not going to even bother trying another MMOG untill I find one that succesfully implements a world like early UO but does it in a way where your actions have consequences. I’m probably preaching to the choir saying this though.
    Removing the obstacle of sometimes having to engage in player versus player combat is like removing the obstacle of having to obtain gold to buy what you want. It just needs to be obstacles of a reasonable size, not like UO where exiting cities was instant death early on.

  • Nicademus

    Someone really needs to do a MMOG life cycle timeline showing all major games. The life/death of these things seems pretty random from 20,000 feet.

  • Raz

    But what does this have to do with Shadowbane?

  • Patrick McKenzie

    >>
    Someone really needs to do a MMOG life cycle timeline showing all major games. The life/death of these things seems pretty random from 20,000 feet.
    >>

    Its easier to count the number of major MMORPGs which have closed. Ever. AC2, Shadowbane. Is Anarchy Online or whatever that sci-fi game was still around? Thats about it in the era I’ve played MMORPGs in. Every other MMORPG I’ve ever played still has the official servers up and ready for login.

  • scottj

    There have been a few others you forgot; Earth and Beyond and Motor City Online being the largest.

  • Gimmick

    I still hold a candle for Fighting Legends Online, the first MMORTS that was killed 6 months or so post release. Graphically, it was WoW on acid. The good always die young.

  • http://www.slydesblog.com Slyde

    Honestly, this news makes me sad….

    i gave up on shadowbane years ago, but they really DID have a great idea in there, and a good player model.

    it was by far the worst, buggiest, and sloppiest client i had ever seen in any mmo, and ive played them all. After waiting for SB for years to come out, i felt i had to give it a shot. But god, the game was literally 5 years late! thats death for any game….

    i stuck with SB for the first 6 months. When they finally decided to do the unthinkable and “wipe away all existing worlds and characters” so they could start fresh and fix all the duping and other mistakes, i said to myself “what the fuck am i doing playing this game?”.

    A MMO that makes you start over because of their fuckups? That was part 1 of the 1-2 punch that made me quit. # 2 was the same week they annoucned the world wipe, they announced a 30 dollar expansion. EXCUSE ME? the core game wasnt working and we were being shoved an expansion?

    That was it for me, and i quit that week.

    It’s a shame too… when you could get thru all the crap, it was a great game. We’ll never see another MMO like it, im afraid…

  • Wanderer

    Don’t get me started on Shadowbane … oh, wait, you already did. Now you’re in for it.

    Shadowbane was my holy grail: a PvP game, a political game, a game where players could do things that mattered. I waited for Shadowbane. And waited. And waited. On launch day, I rushed to the store. I installed it … I logged in … I waited … and waited … and waited …. At that point, I guess I should have known what was coming.

    Within the first week, it became painfully apparent that what I had just dropped fifty bucks on was in no way a finished game. It was a steaming pile of crap that had been stuffed into a box and shoved out the door. “Play to crush” became “pay to crash” and crash we did. The client crashed. The servers crashed. The login servers thought they were firewalls (when they didn’t just crash).

    On those occasions when I could actually play, the true technical merit of the game came shining through like a 15-watt appliance bulb splattered with congealed grease. The wall bug that teleported you to the bottom of the ocean. Good luck getting your stuff back. The “cutting edge” 3D engine that made it almost impossible to walk up stairs because you kept poking through parts of the wall. The only “cutting edge” was from the sharp parts where it was broken. And let’s not forget the geometry bugs, which I first met on Newbie Island when I got stuck on the corner of a bridge while a mob was chasing me, and which reached their pinnacle when I got trapped inside a mountain on Undead Island and had to get summoned out.

    Then there were the bad design decisions. Among the worst aspects of SB for me was the repair cost after PvP combat. At one point I worked out that I was spending nearly an hour of PvE for every 10 minutes of PvP, just to pay my repairs. If I’d wanted to grind mobs, especially boring mobs in boring zones cut and pasted from other identical boring zones, I wouldn’t have been playing Shadowbane! Most bizarre was the inexplicable belief on the part of the developers that players with the functional equivalent of modern and futuristic weapons, players capable of combined-arms tactics, would nonetheless follow the patterns of medieval siege warfare. The devs had what I call religious issues: they thought if they believed something really, really hard then it would happen that way. They gave us castles and towers, but we had A-10′s and transporters. Enter the zergball.

    There was the whole respec issue. I understand that some time after I quit they allowed some type of character respec, but when I left, they were still saying no, never, nada; if you want to change the character spec that you had to guess at because you started on launch day, reroll. Level up another character. Helloooo, Wolfpack: I bought Shadowbane for PvP. NOT for PvE. Especially not for your PvE, which set a new world’s “dullest grind” record. If I wanted to do endless PvE, I’d be playing a game that didn’t suck in every other possible way. Levelling up new characters to try a new build is PvE. So I had my choice of more weeks of PvE, or getting pwned by people who had started after we early adopters had made all the mistakes for them. Sweet choice: more PvE, or living with a gimp build.

    From what I could tell, the game launched with no admin tools. That led to the debacle with the bug that caused merchants and buildings to derank or vanish completely, and Wolfpack was unable to determine what rank they had been in order to replace them. If I recall correctly they were only willing to replace them with Rank 3 equivalents, which meant weeks of time and millions of gold (PvE again) ranking them back up to Rank 7 where they had been, and since a Rank 3 building could hold only a single merchant versus the 3 in a Rank 7, that meant that two of your merchants (possibly from ultra-rare contracts) and all of the time and gold (PvE yet again) you put into ranking them up would be gone forever. Why couldn’t they just look at the city log and see that yes, that building ranked up to 7 three weeks ago, just like you said, and maintenance was paid on time, and there’s no record of it being destroyed, so it should be just fine, but now there’s no building there? Because either there was no log, or there were no tools for reading the log. That is crazy.

    Getting back to bad design, just what did they think their supply of new players was going to come from when the early adopters like me got fed up with the PvE, crashes, PvE, bugs, PvE, lousy service, PvE, lag, PvE, design issues, and did I mention all the PvE? I talked to one guy once who had spent the better part of a week trying to make it to level 21. Any time he left Khar, he got ganked by a bunch of bored R4′s and R5′s who hung out there 24/7 ganking newbies. He was broke, naked, and level 20. The big guilds didn’t want anyone under 30-ish. The little guilds (anyone not part of the server’s uber-guild) were running scared, and couldn’t protect a newbie anyway. Since any real newbies couldn’t level up, I would guess that 90% of the people who bought Shadowbane after the first month or so tried it out, couldn’t get out of Khar, said “#$&% this #$@*” and never played after the first 30 days ran out.

    I never got to experience Shadowbane as an actual newcomer after the first levelling rush at launch, and I’m glad of that. I had enough suck for one lifetime. But how exactly was Wolfpack expecting to replace the players who left for all the reasons listed above if those replacements could never actually level up to participate in the game? Or, if they did, only as a member of the server’s dominant guild, making that guild even more dominant and the server more boring.

    It’s not human nature to divide into evenly-matched factions. In general, most people head straight for the winning side. It becomes a positive feedback loop, which the folks at Wolfpack seem to have totally failed to anticipate. The only thing more boring than being on the losing side of something like that is being on the winning side.

    Then there was the bad game management, which ties into the above. I’m not even going to go into the siege weapon debacle; that was just stupid. But they didn’t learn from that. My server’s uber-guild split neatly up the middle in a civil war. (the leaders wanted something to do, and there was nobody else left worth fighting) We had two fairly equal factions, and they’d fixed some of the worst of the crash bugs by that point so there was actually some possibility of having big fights that went to a conclusion rather than a crash, so we were actually having fun for the first time in ages. Then the live team decided to do an “event”. Their “event” mostly consisted of giving an indestructable demon city and associated army of demons to one of the two (previously equally matched) factions in our civil war. The results were predictable. As people (from both sides) quit in disgust, the most common parting shots were things along the order of “What’s the point of a player-run world, of building anything like a guild or a city, if the devs are just going to come in and kick it all over?”

    Then, of course, there were the server merges, transfers, and shutdowns. They’d move your character to another server — with only his equipped items. Not his bank. Not his inventory. Not even the coins jingling in his pockets. Most games that do total character wipes do it as a punishment for cheating — not as a “reward” for being a faithful customer on a server that’s about to get merged. The level of contempt that showed for the playerbase is just staggering. If they could transfer items and didn’t, it was arrogance tinged with cruelty; if they couldn’t, it was incompetence of epic proportions. Then again, if it’s true that the early problems with the login servers was due to some coder neglecting to release disconnected sockets, that degree of incompetence would seem to be standard.

    Maybe Wolfpack later developed some trace of humility, some concept of customer service, some attitude other than disdain towards the players. If they did, they did it after I left. I never saw anything but arrogance, blindness, and the attitude of “there’s nothing wrong with our perfect game, if you’re having a problem it’s your fault”. Though I suppose the Rolling 30′s might have helped disabuse them of that notion. Overall, though, Shadowbane was a textbook case of how not to design, develop, launch, or manage a game.

    Sadly, the industry bean-counters are going to claim that Shadowbane’s failure shows that the market doesn’t want full PvP games.

    What it really shows is that the market doesn’t want badly-designed, badly-implemented, bug-riddled festivals of suck run by people who aren’t qualified to run a lemonade stand. The PvP was all that kept it alive this long. Without the PvP, it wouldn’t have lasted six months.

    RIP, Shadowbane. Long live PvP.

    Final thought: I still wish they’d let people ride centaurs. I’d have loaded up my centaur warrior with a caster for a main gun and brought new meaning to the word “tank”.

  • invitroman

    Yes, every stillborn MMO had great untapped potential depending on who you ask and their ‘untimely’ demise was a tragedy to us all. I’ve only heard it about every time a game was released that didn’t enjoy EQ Velious subscription numbers.

    The fact that Todd ‘Warden’ Coleman could talk his way out of a migraine while promising his fanbase the earth and the moon on release did not help the ‘tragedy’ in terms of sheer player-burnout and shocking dissapointment, at all.

    However, the one upside was that pestering/trolling J. during his tenure at Shadowbane Xroads/warcry was some fuuuunnnnn shit believe you me :p. Wierd thing about it too. He seemed to be very bitter towards the end of his stay there, almost outright admitted he knew what a shite state the game was in several months before release.

    “I would argue that given the handicaps that Shadowbane suffered under for most of its life, the fact that it did as well as it did….stuff”

    In more jaded terms, “Shadowbane sucked ten kinds of ass but the folks who developed it were pleasant and insightful so I’ll give their efforts the best damn eulogy brokentoys can muster.”

    Mr Jennings, surely there are more deserving entities to focus your sympathy on.

  • http://www.slydesblog.com Slyde

    while we are on the topic of SB bugs, here’s something i always wanted to know….

    did they EVER get to fix the server lag bug, where after you killed a mob, sometimes you couldnt click on it, because where the corpse was on YOUR screen, wasnt where the corpse REALLY was, so you had to do a where’s waldo for a bit until you clicked on the RIGHT spot, even though to your screen you were clicking on the ground?

    when i left 6 months into the game, that inexcusable bug was still in game…

    Slydesblog.com

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com/ J.

    If you once cared, then it mattered.

    And so did I.

  • xzzy

    > did they EVER get to fix the server lag bug,

    When the game went completely free a month or so ago, I spent an evening playing it just because, hey, free MMOG = good. It felt exactly like I was playing in the open stress test beta from 3 or 4 years ago or whenever it was. The same bugs were there, the game looked exactly the same, only difference is that this time around I had a machine that was able to run the game on max settings.

    Every other MMOG in existence has had it’s “newbie experience” evolve after a year or two, and maybe even fixed some bugs. Not Shadowbane.

  • Sumyung Guy

    First off, I’m sure that by this point Scott’s (who I will still always think of as Lum the Mad) blog has already moved on. Hey, I’ve been busy.

    Second, I realize that his blog entry is about a tragic situation for a team of developers and programmers who just lost their jobs with little or no warning. Some of these people I’m sure Lum knows, or other folks who posted here know (Y’all please excuse me for not knowing all of you).

    But third, this is about a game that was concieved of a very long time ago (in MMORPG years), a game that was in development a very long time. A game that was concieved of with a very specific crowd of players in mind, a crowd that claimed (back in 1998-1999) that they were the majority of players, and as soon as a game came around with “PvP done right”, they would prove that. Wanderer has given us a viewpoint from some of those players, but not the most *h4rdc0re* players. Perhaps they’re not true PvPers, these folks that Wanderer is not really one of, but they ARE PKers. Indeed they’re much like the very PKers that by the end of 1998 finally made Ultima Online a useless monthly expense for me and four of my real life friends.

    Lum’s already covered this in his December 18th 2004 article, “The Unbearable Darkness of Ultima Online”, but I’ll add my little addition anyway. To sum up, the interactive UO game world combined with other factors strongly attracted several of my real life friends. Who found out that you couldn’t do something that you can in many other MMORPGs right now: actually get together for 2 to 4 hours a night and adventure in dungeons, roleplay your characters and quest for adventure and treasure. That’s because roving patrols of PKers, teleporting from dungeon to dungeon (there were only about 11 dungeons and you could Mark and Recall to them all), slaughtered pathetic, kinda-roleplaying, just bands of buddies on 24,400 dialup who weren’t playing PK optimized characters. You could expect this to happen about an average of every 15 minutes in most dungeons during prime playing hours and if nothing else, the sheer disruption that this caused made dungeon adventuring impossible. And those of you reading this and thinking “cry more noob” – congratulations. You won. We left. And a *LOT* of people like us left and didn’t come back. Thus Trammel. Thus the PK switch. Thus, ultimately even, the failure of Shadowbane.

    Which finally brings me around to my third point: a major reason why Shadowbane failed and is closing down. You can laugh at college age or older guys who played from crappy dialup on home PC’s that weren’t cutting edge…but us folks were the vast *majority* of the people playing these games. And most of us just weren’t interested in Shadowbane. Hell, even those that tried it, and ardent PvPers who tried it had stories like this:

    “I’ll tell you where I think mostly this game failed… Sure, hardware issues, sloppy coding, bad network code, poor backend database, lag, and bugs all played their part and a big part.

    But I think the real failure was the fact that they didn’t do enough to attract a broad spectrum of gamers.

    Lets face it, when SB first released, it WAS a fun game. Servers were busy, many people were new, everyone was rolling all the various classes because they were fun. Roleplayers were everywhere, roleplaying guilds were common. Carebears were even having fun, cities were popping up all over. It was all a festive and exciting time to be playing the game. You could walk out of Khar, and find literally HUNDREDS of groups out fighting mobs and getting experiance.

    You didn’t have people worried about flavor of the month, or overpowered templates, or trying to be the best. You have a crapload of people, and most of them shared one thing, they wanted to play and have fun and weren’t worried about “Elite Ownage”.

    Slowly, over a few months, all of these people left the game. Some got bored of the lack of content, but a large majority got griefed out of the game by a select few kewl dewd punks that make it their business to ruin peoples fun. I can’t tell you how many stories i’ve heard on my server of entire guilds leaving, because of harrasment. Or people having bugs used/abused against them making their play impossible. The carebears got griefed away.. The roleplayers got tired of the kewl dewds and getting laughed at.. The casual players that play for enjoyment got tired of getting overrun by kiddies using FOTM templates. The list goes on.

    Let me use one guild as example, on my old server “War”… The Fallen Angels, a grief-gank guild, filled with kiddies that exploit, cheat, abuse bugs, and otherwise do EVERYTHING in their power to make other peoples play miserable. These clowns would find a nice roleplayer guild to pick on, then lay 200 bulwarks around their city with duped cash. Not to siege them but to make them all crash then they played in their own city, or to make movement impossible. Thats only one small example of how this one guild, probably is almost solely responsible for destroying an entire server.

    I personally know 30-40 people that quit because of them, and a dozen or so guilds that got tired of their grief-gank-cheat bullcrap.

    The total lack of enforcement of cheating, duping, or generally abusing other players or the game by WP/UBI is one of the reasons *I* quit, and I know many people quit.

    Shadowbane has proven many things.. It has proven that you CANNOT have free, open and unrestricted PKing without reprocussions and expect a game to be a success. It has proven that you cannot cater to one style of gamer, and expect a game to be a success. It has also proven that if you design a game to attract the 16 year old grief-gank crowd, you get what you ask for – they’ll destroy the game from the inside out driving everyone off, and eventually quitting the game themselves, complaing about “lack of population”…

    Shadowbane has many unique concepts, but is a benchmark for developers of what you can and cannot do in order to succeed in this business.

    Consider that Ultima Online was once free and unrestricted PK/PvP and was rapidly going down the tubes. They finally closed this off, created Trammel, and added severe penalties to PKing. The end result, they TRIPLED their subscriptions, and became the second most popular mmorpg in America. The grief-gank dudes complained, quit, and moved to Shadowbane…

    Shadowbane if its to be saved, needs to become WAY more friendly to a vast majority of gamers out there. After playing SWG now for 2 months, I have to say I prefer the “Switch Method” of PvP.. I can engage in it when I want, where I want, or otherwise ignore it if I want.. Best system that attracts all measures of gamers.”

    I’ll say it again: the weed of rampant PKing in Ultima Online bears bitter fruit for the PKers. I remember when the PKers that caused UO to hemmorage players like blood from a severed artery would laugh on the various posting boards and declare that Shadowbane would be the game that PKed Everquest. The holy grail, PvP done right, it would show all those whiney carebears who fled to candyland why they were all such useless noobs and why the PKers who caused so many account cancellations were Kings.

    Well, I guess those guys really showed us pathetic whiners didn’t they? See you “Kings” in Shadowbane. Oh, wait….

  • Wayne

    I’m not a fan of PvP in MMORPG’s, mainly because companies try to mix the game up to suit the PvP’ers and PvE’ers, which is a recipe for doom.

    Outside of the training areas for new players, SB was pure PvP. As a long time AC player that thought PvP in AC really sucked, I thought SB was on the right track. I had fun with the PvP element in SB, what caused me to quit were the bugs in the client and the hacking. The game, despite all of its delayed, was not ready for release and that killed it for me.

    Hopefully someone else will see what PvP could be like ala SB, and run with it someday.

  • Xilren

    There is still gold in the ruins of SB’s history. The non design issues were all technical ones that should have been solvable. Lag, crashes, lag, more crashes, and the numerous bugs and exploits that still exist even today, spelled doom for this game no matter how intriguing the concepts. Ignoring the technical stuff, the city building, politics, and seiging game was actually fun, but gold farming endlessly and the inevitability of a zerg “winning” the server were very real issues that drove people away. At least WP set the expectations up front; pvp all the time, but their same in your face appeal to the banned from games like UO made it a breeding ground for exploit kiddies who would use any “tactic” to win. Sadly, the shoddy code of the game provided a lot of ammo for such folks to use.

    That being said, I had fun in SB in beta, and a few months into launch, before the technical issues and endless gold farming undid it. Had WP managed to get their code under control, discover how to effectively admin a game, and most importantly, pushed forward on some extentions of their existing design, they had some great potential.

    Fer instances, each server should have had its own unique geography, differnt pve zone layouts and resource nodes, and most importantly, a set time frame to an end game state which results in a character wipe and the server starts over with a new layout and set of rules. I.e. if this go round dwarf prelates were the template of choice, next server war series remove prelates and rotate in a new character class, or race. The exp from PVE should have been 5x what it was b/c the pve was never anything more than a means to an end. Tweaked lore servers, elf war servers, human crusade server, etc etc.

    The best times by far in SB were when a Server was new and things were constantly in a state of flux. Getting your first city up, alliances with other fledgling guild to try to survive the intial challenges, betrayals, board drama, running battles. All fun stuff. Once things got to a certain point though.. uberguilds would dominate, new guilds and players would be frozen out and the server would basically stagnate.

    Love it or hate it, SB was DIFFERENT. Pour a 40 out in its; memory.

  • Saxxon

    I Was in SB for roughly 2-3 months. Shortly after the guild leader’s account was hacked, and Ubi/WP insisted it was the player’s fault for giving out his account name (available on their forums…) and pw > to his brother-in-law. All fine and dandy, but we all knew the account was hacked, and after I had left factions within the R30′s guild subs did a force de majeur hacking that made it clear in no uncertain terms the insecurity of the date and game.

    That they had ideas and concepts that have mass appeal is no question – city building, seiging – merging and RTS with an RPG – are really a strong path to a dynamic end game that coiuld keep people playing for years. The thing is, you cannot do it in such a winner-take-all fashion if you want to stay in business. “Dynamic tension” is an exercise technique, and the concept applies to balancing a game like that so that an uber zerg doesn’t monochromatize the server population. There are a lot of creative paths to that end. And frankly, World of Warcraft’s client base is not unassailable – a game can be made that would garner a huge slice of their market. You see any RTS in WoW? I see a bunch of instances you have to run repeatedly, and PvP is reduced to almost the same thing (BG = MC = UBRS). The PvE grind in SB is alive and well in WoW save its for gear, and 1000 hour instances. WoW has a very vulnerable underbelly for anyone ballsy enough to exploit it.

    The sheepdog analogy is a very good one. Pure grief PvP is going to yield a boutique game over time, which with any other problems like SB had, will topple without a client base large enough to support it long term. Pure PvE is boring to most of us, and there is certainly a selection out there for people to choose from. If the game has a good PvP model that maintains balance, a good player experience for “carebears” to tourist, get into and become embroiled in the battle – you’ve won. The problem I have seen is most designers aren’t putting detail into all sides of the ball of wax – leaving it to fall flat.

    I do give props to Damion et al for hanging on as long as they did. I hope the lessons of SB are learned properly so the next endeavor enjoys success. Mind you, I don’t disagree with the several posters above in their disparagement of the problems SB had – they were severe, let me add the 3 guild management menus that the slider bars didn’t work on for my entire beta & retail time. Having obvious and game aspect breaking bugs like that remain unfixed *will* take your business down – perhaps quickly, or perhaps in a downward swirling motion over time like a common plumbing fixture. The team needs to have the size to tackle and kill the bugs, that takes money to have the team, which means the game best attract a good size client base. And if Damion does happen to read this – yes I am swinging for the fence, best way to hit a home run.