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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s The Dancing, Stupid</title>
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	<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/</link>
	<description>Random Comments About Gaming And Tractors</description>
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		<title>By: Eric Nickell</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2929</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Nickell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2929</guid>
		<description>As a final follow-up, because of the significance of the comments in this thread, I have contacted Daniel Terdiman, and he has graciously amended that (condensed) quote to reflect my intended point. I might not have bothered, except that Google has a way of permanentizing things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a final follow-up, because of the significance of the comments in this thread, I have contacted Daniel Terdiman, and he has graciously amended that (condensed) quote to reflect my intended point. I might not have bothered, except that Google has a way of permanentizing things.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Nickell</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2928</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Nickell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 23:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2928</guid>
		<description>(Commenting late. Just back from a week hiking through Point Reyes National Seashore.)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Brian&gt; To further Bob&#039;s comments, I winced when I read the article, and I winced again when you called me out on it. Afaik, it&#039;s the one place in the piece where Dan misquoted or misunderstood us. And to spin Bob&#039;s comment a bit, my point was that while the social nature of the games is what makes an MMO distinct from a single-player game, and while we know game companies are mining and analyzing their MMO data, we have yet to meet a game company that is doing social analysis qua social analysis on the data they have in hand. Such a company might well exist -- but we haven&#039;t seen it yet. I hope that in this context, the comment is not considered semi-insulting to anyone, let alone potential clients.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Grinless&gt; scottj is dead on saying people &quot;want and do play solo in a multiplayer environment&quot;. People do seem to want socialization -- they aren&#039;t playing a single player game -- but it doesn&#039;t mean they want to group. This is a main theme of Nic&#039;s paper, &quot;Alone Together&quot; (available on the PlayOn blog, or directly from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.parc.xerox.com/research/publications/files/5599.pdf&quot; title=&quot;Alone Together&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.parc.xerox.com/research/publications/files/5599.pdf&lt;/a&gt;). People enjoy the audience and spectacle and the aliveness of a shared social space, even though they spend much of their time playing solo. I also suspect there&#039;s a spectrum thing going on -- some people would prefer a crummy group to soloing, and others would prefer soloing to even the best group. Being on the grouping end myself, I was surprised that most players are at the soloing end. Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Commenting late. Just back from a week hiking through Point Reyes National Seashore.)</p>
<p>Brian&gt; To further Bob&#8217;s comments, I winced when I read the article, and I winced again when you called me out on it. Afaik, it&#8217;s the one place in the piece where Dan misquoted or misunderstood us. And to spin Bob&#8217;s comment a bit, my point was that while the social nature of the games is what makes an MMO distinct from a single-player game, and while we know game companies are mining and analyzing their MMO data, we have yet to meet a game company that is doing social analysis qua social analysis on the data they have in hand. Such a company might well exist &#8212; but we haven&#8217;t seen it yet. I hope that in this context, the comment is not considered semi-insulting to anyone, let alone potential clients.</p>
<p>Grinless&gt; scottj is dead on saying people &#8220;want and do play solo in a multiplayer environment&#8221;. People do seem to want socialization &#8212; they aren&#8217;t playing a single player game &#8212; but it doesn&#8217;t mean they want to group. This is a main theme of Nic&#8217;s paper, &#8220;Alone Together&#8221; (available on the PlayOn blog, or directly from <a href="http://www.parc.xerox.com/research/publications/files/5599.pdf" title="Alone Together" rel="nofollow">http://www.parc.xerox.com/research/publications/files/5599.pdf</a>). People enjoy the audience and spectacle and the aliveness of a shared social space, even though they spend much of their time playing solo. I also suspect there&#8217;s a spectrum thing going on &#8212; some people would prefer a crummy group to soloing, and others would prefer soloing to even the best group. Being on the grouping end myself, I was surprised that most players are at the soloing end. Go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: BobMoore</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2927</link>
		<dc:creator>BobMoore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2927</guid>
		<description>\&#039;e2\&#039;80\&#039;9cBut what is it that makes an MMO an MMO? The socialization. And we have yet to meet a company that (gets that).\&#039;e2\&#039;80\&#039;9d&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Brian, don&#039;t believe everything you read. (We&#039;re not THAT arrogant.) Daniel did a nice job on the article overall, but unfortunately he misquoted Eric in that last line. What Eric actually said was &quot;despite the fact that game companies have masses of data on what their customers actually do together, we have yet to meet a company that really mines it.&quot;&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
But that might not make as exciting reading as Daniel&#039;s version. ;)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
PS, if you would like a copy of the paper on avatar interaction design that Raph mentions, please drop me a line (thanks, Raph!).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>\&#8217;e2\&#8217;80\&#8217;9cBut what is it that makes an MMO an MMO? The socialization. And we have yet to meet a company that (gets that).\&#8217;e2\&#8217;80\&#8217;9d</p>
<p>Brian, don&#8217;t believe everything you read. (We&#8217;re not THAT arrogant.) Daniel did a nice job on the article overall, but unfortunately he misquoted Eric in that last line. What Eric actually said was &#8220;despite the fact that game companies have masses of data on what their customers actually do together, we have yet to meet a company that really mines it.&#8221;</p>
<p>But that might not make as exciting reading as Daniel&#8217;s version. <img src='http://www.brokentoys.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>PS, if you would like a copy of the paper on avatar interaction design that Raph mentions, please drop me a line (thanks, Raph!).</p>
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		<title>By: Grinless</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2926</link>
		<dc:creator>Grinless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 19:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2926</guid>
		<description>Then we all understand each other.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Now, stop worrying about socialisation and start worrying more about gameplay. Casual player, the time-restricted kind, have time for very minimal social interaction but they do want to make sure their scarce time are rewarded with good gameplay.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
The social side of MMO is a bonus to most people, nothing more, they come and stick in a MMO for the gameplay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then we all understand each other.</p>
<p>Now, stop worrying about socialisation and start worrying more about gameplay. Casual player, the time-restricted kind, have time for very minimal social interaction but they do want to make sure their scarce time are rewarded with good gameplay.</p>
<p>The social side of MMO is a bonus to most people, nothing more, they come and stick in a MMO for the gameplay.</p>
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		<title>By: SirBruce</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2925</link>
		<dc:creator>SirBruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2925</guid>
		<description>Also, people (like me) who enjoy sharing, in realtime, a mutual immersive experience.  Like watching a TV show with friends, or going to a sports exhibition.  I just don&#039;t want my enjoyment of that experience DEPENDENT on what the other people I&#039;m with do.  I can enjoy a movie even if my date does not.  If my date starts hitting me, I can move to another seat and still enjoy the movie; the theatre owner doesn&#039;t make us leave because the movie requires at least a 2 people to watch.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Imagine how annoying Monopoly would be if, in order to play, you actually had to have 4 people per &quot;player&quot;, and only one could roll the dice and move the piece, only one could buy properties, only one could build houses, and only one could collect rent.  And if one of those people kept screwing up or left, you couldn&#039;t do that particular function anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, people (like me) who enjoy sharing, in realtime, a mutual immersive experience.  Like watching a TV show with friends, or going to a sports exhibition.  I just don&#8217;t want my enjoyment of that experience DEPENDENT on what the other people I&#8217;m with do.  I can enjoy a movie even if my date does not.  If my date starts hitting me, I can move to another seat and still enjoy the movie; the theatre owner doesn&#8217;t make us leave because the movie requires at least a 2 people to watch.</p>
<p>Imagine how annoying Monopoly would be if, in order to play, you actually had to have 4 people per &#8220;player&#8221;, and only one could roll the dice and move the piece, only one could buy properties, only one could build houses, and only one could collect rent.  And if one of those people kept screwing up or left, you couldn&#8217;t do that particular function anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: scottj</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2924</link>
		<dc:creator>scottj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2924</guid>
		<description>A truly solo MMO is a single player game.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
What you are referring to are folks that want and do play solo within a multiplayer environment. That multiplayer environment still has socialization/community elements, such as a player economy, arbitration of disputes between players, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A truly solo MMO is a single player game.</p>
<p>What you are referring to are folks that want and do play solo within a multiplayer environment. That multiplayer environment still has socialization/community elements, such as a player economy, arbitration of disputes between players, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Grinless</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2923</link>
		<dc:creator>Grinless</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2923</guid>
		<description>I still think you should look past the MMO = community/socialisation mantra.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Most of the market, the elusive casual players, doesn&#039;t care about socialisation. Im tempted to say: &quot;At all&quot;...&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Stop following the &quot;socialisation&quot; sirens call and face the fact: Most MMO player want and do play solo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still think you should look past the MMO = community/socialisation mantra.</p>
<p>Most of the market, the elusive casual players, doesn&#8217;t care about socialisation. Im tempted to say: &#8220;At all&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>Stop following the &#8220;socialisation&#8221; sirens call and face the fact: Most MMO player want and do play solo.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2922</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2922</guid>
		<description>&gt; Oh no, I didn\&#039;e2\&#039;80\&#039;99t mean to suggest the PlayOn guys thought it was that simple.&lt;br&gt;
&gt; It\&#039;e2\&#039;80\&#039;99s just something I see a lot.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Likewise, I don&#039;t mean to bag on the PlayOn folks - that stuff they do is pretty neat.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
But I do betcha every article written about them forever gives me drama, as it hits something on that list...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; Oh no, I didn\&#8217;e2\&#8217;80\&#8217;99t mean to suggest the PlayOn guys thought it was that simple.<br />
&gt; It\&#8217;e2\&#8217;80\&#8217;99s just something I see a lot.</p>
<p>Likewise, I don&#8217;t mean to bag on the PlayOn folks &#8211; that stuff they do is pretty neat.</p>
<p>But I do betcha every article written about them forever gives me drama, as it hits something on that list&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: SirBruce</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2921</link>
		<dc:creator>SirBruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jun 2006 22:24:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2921</guid>
		<description>Oh no, I didn&#039;t mean to suggest the PlayOn guys thought it was that simple.  It&#039;s just something I see a lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh no, I didn&#8217;t mean to suggest the PlayOn guys thought it was that simple.  It&#8217;s just something I see a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Raph</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/comment-page-1/#comment-2920</link>
		<dc:creator>Raph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jun 2006 14:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/2006/06/09/its-the-dancing-stupid/#comment-2920</guid>
		<description>PlayOn is sponsored by PARC as an incubation project, I believe. That means that they had funding to try stuff out to see if they could build a viable business out of it. Now they are at the stage where they need to do so.&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
Having spent quite a lot of time looking at what they accomplished and what they have researched, I can tell you that the &quot;grouping = socialization&quot; summary is pretty far off from what they actually say and believe. Bob Moore, for example, can talk at length about ways to make avatars more compelling using fairly simple tricks -- he presented on this at AGC. The work they did examining socialization patterns goes a lot deeper too. I&#039;d link to the papers except it&#039;s 6:58am on a Sunday at a hotel with my family and we&#039;re going down to breakfast now. :)&lt;br&gt;
&lt;br&gt;
PS, the companies could easily do what PlayOn is doing, if they just committed to it. Sometimes it takes an external group doing something for the value to be recognized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PlayOn is sponsored by PARC as an incubation project, I believe. That means that they had funding to try stuff out to see if they could build a viable business out of it. Now they are at the stage where they need to do so.</p>
<p>Having spent quite a lot of time looking at what they accomplished and what they have researched, I can tell you that the &#8220;grouping = socialization&#8221; summary is pretty far off from what they actually say and believe. Bob Moore, for example, can talk at length about ways to make avatars more compelling using fairly simple tricks &#8212; he presented on this at AGC. The work they did examining socialization patterns goes a lot deeper too. I&#8217;d link to the papers except it&#8217;s 6:58am on a Sunday at a hotel with my family and we&#8217;re going down to breakfast now. <img src='http://www.brokentoys.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>PS, the companies could easily do what PlayOn is doing, if they just committed to it. Sometimes it takes an external group doing something for the value to be recognized.</p>
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