Playing the Boards

As Tide spotted on his blog, SWG Creative Director Chris Cao unloaded with both barrels on the SWG boards re: the topic of, well, the SWG boards. The money paragraph:

Roughly 80% of the people who play SWG never read these boards. We know this from our own internal metrics and it poses an interesting question. Are we talking to people who play the game or posters who play the boards?

The boards predictably exploded in a fury of paradoxes, with players yelling “Here! Here! Don’t listen to Those Other Guys!” among the assuredly expected retorts of “I’d play your game if it wasn’t more boring than this message board.”

This is mildly interesting in an SOE-watcher sense (one wonders how much commitment post-Raph Koster SOE has to a vibrant forum community, especially given the unrelieved anger of disenfranchised pre-NGE players) but more interesting from a more general standpoint. Specifically: is Cao correct? Are MMO forums so high-volume and high-noise that they are useless as forms of usable feedback?

Well, it certainly depends on the game. Even within the same company, a game’s official forums can have a wildly different tenor: consider the Everquest 2 forums viz the SWG forums. Different games can give a different pitch to their forums. Whether or not the game is actually doing well is completely irrelevant: even though the game has struggled, the Matrix Online forums are pretty congenial, and the World of Warcraft forums, um, well, aren’t. It is probably not a coincidence that the MXO forums are much lower traffic than the WoW forums.

What becomes a problem is what Cao alludes to in his post; where meta-gaming the forums becomes a goal for being more powerful in-game. Some of the worst forums to read in any game are forums devoted to class balance issues, because many players see this as where they need to petition for redress at being too weak, or protest when they feel they’ve been nerfed unfairly for being too strong. It’s a vicious cycle, and one made even fiercer when players of competing classes chime into the chorus. Usable feedback? Nil.

Necessary feedback? Probably. Filtering it may be more of an art than a science, but it’s something that a developer has to be aware of. If a good portion of their users feel disenfranchised, then that perception can become self-perpetuating, beyond any measure of reality. A good illustration of that is in DAOC, a class was introduced in an expansion (I won’t mention which, though I’m sure DAOC players can guess) that was wildly, ridiculously overpowered in PvP combat. While other realms were complaining loudly, and with no little justification, that they were being steamrollered, the owning realm’s partisans on the boards protested every adjustment to the class with the somewhat surreal argument that since their morale was so low from Mythic clearly hating them and playing for the other team and nerfing them constantly for years, it was only fair that they have a wildly overpowered class. The really odd thing was that for many people, this logic made sense. Eventually, that class was adjusted into the realm of reality, and the players moved on to arguing about yet another clearly overpowered and justifiably so class.

Too much of this feedback can be harmful, to the point that it can directly harm your project. To illustrate this, I need only point you to the Sword of the Stars community. Sword of the Stars is an extremely ambitious 4x space strategy game crippled (in my mind, anyway) by wildly oversimplified game systems and a wildly overcomplicated user interface. The developers, however, have taken any criticism of their baby extremely poorly, and their community has cheered them on every step of the way. It’s an echo chamber within a bunker. Anyone with actual feedback on, you know, what might be wrong with the game is quickly shouted down. Not all feedback is helpful.

At the same time, the opposite extreme of just ignoring any feedback is equally harmful. If people are paying you money every month, it’s in your financial interest to keep them doing so. That means you should probably listen when they have problems. MMO forums tend to be canaries in coal mines. If they start dropping dead, you may want to check your air supply.

As Cao’s metrics stated, only 20% of MMO players access their official forums (and honestly, I’d say that figure was pretty high). But you ignore those 20% at your peril. And you listen to them at your peril.

Wow. If only there were professionals who handled community forums for a living.

(Edit 10/6 3:00p: corrected Cao’s title)

  • http://www.raphkoster.com Raph

    “As devs, we aren\’e2\’80\’99t here to play the board game. We\’e2\’80\’99re here to play, and to make, SWG.”

    They are the SAME game.

  • chabuhi

    I wonder how many people would play most MMO’s even once if they were required to first read the game’s forums.

  • Pingback: Raph’s Website » Players who post, posters who play

  • http://overmoderated.blogspot.com/ Rich Weil

    Since you don’t have to log in to read the SWG boards, I’d be interested to know what metrics were used to generate the number of people who don’t read the forums.

    But in any case, this is pretty much the same old argument of the “vocal minority” versus the “canary in the coal mine”. It really does all come down to filtering. Any feedback in this dynamic is good when filtered correctly. Any feedback can be bad when taken as gospel. I can’t see any scenario where it’s smart to just IGNORE feedback altogether. But, admittedly, that is the easiest thing to do..

    In the end, there are productive communities and non-productive ones just as there are good games and bad games. And in the end, it comes down to how much a company buys into the effort necessary to sift the wheat from the chaff.

  • Freakazoid

    “The really odd thing was that for many people, this logic made sense.”

    You seem to be implying that this doesn’t make sense. Think you could clarify?

    And yes, forums are a double-edged sword and whatnot. However, there haven’t been many professionals who handled community forums who were also in developer positions (ie, a say-so that got the feedback actually implemented). That nifty class representative thing DAoC had for a while would’ve been great, if the developers didn’t even try to implement a fraction of what they wanted in a timely manner, or for that matter even bother to explain anything they did.

  • http://tidehorizon.blogspot.com tide

    Yeah but the (sad) irony here is twofold: 1) SWG players NEED to read the forums to keep with all the changes (sometimes large) that affect the game because they are *not* all listed on the in-game or external guides. Also, the SWG forums are notable because they have so *many* walkthroughs and strategy guides to help fellow players. Imagine being new to the game… And 2) the amount of people posting now to that forum, after only 1.5 weeks of watching and posting for help is maybe 1/100 or 1/1000 of what it used to be. Yeah, hyperbole, but I watched 8hrs or more go by and only a *single* page of the Jedi boards appear. Olden times, new pages were created every 30mins or so. I’m not sure then if this kind of criticism was deserved because the place seems positively genteel to what it used to be. People should go see the Vanguard forums if they want a taste of yore.

  • Evrett

    nifty..been lurking lums boards for years..never felt like posting anything till now..

    ..I must’ve missed that catfight on the kerberos boards..I posted my concerns about there being 3 seporate builds of the game and was threatened with banning and called names..the really annoying thing about those forums though is the way important news about patches, bugs, developer persective and whatnot is left buried in bits and peices in the forum instead of posted and stuck. I’ve asked Mecron like 100 why he feels its nessicary to make people dig through the forums for dev info/feedback..sigh..

    I will say, in regards to lack of UI information in SOTS, there is a “roleplaying” aspect the kerberos people seem to attribute to the game where as they want you to discover stuff about the game for yourself. Whether they purposely left some mystery in their product or just found a creative way to cover up the incomplete parts..shrug…

    Chicks review is fairly spot on..I personally am particularly dissapointed in the lack of difficulty the AI presents. SOTS is the only show in town however and it earns a spot in my gaming rotation just cause its the only way to feed the need until Moo rises again.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com J.

    For fuck’s sake, what’s this guy all bent out of shape about? Either he cares what players think, or he doesn’t.

    Christ, it’s like no one spent any time at all on the Internet. If you treat your players like the metrics they represent but neglect the notion that THEY ARE PEOPLE … well, I guess you get NGE.

    SOE managers have a history of making dumb mistakes like this, don’t they? Players “just fuck us up” if you listen to them, right?

    Right. Just don’t go fucking yourself up by admitting things like that. Say it internally if that’s what you believe, but not so loud. All the community work in the world isn’t going to help sickum if the producer’s going to come off half-cocked whenever the hell s/he feels like it.

    So, this is obviously the community team’s fault for not doing a better job of keeping the boss off the boards. Time to change the padlocks on the chain again, folks.

  • Damien Neil

    The really interesting question is how representative forums are of the player base as a whole, and how influential the people who read and/or post are. If 1% of the game reads the forums, but they’re all opinion leaders with extensive in-game networks, then the forums have an importance disproportionate to their membership.

    And, yes, telling ANY collection of players that you don’t care about them is PR insanity. Even if they’re frothing-at-the-mouth lunatics.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com J.

    And before I forget, here’s a rather spiffy old thread on the subject of game message boards and what they’re (not) good for:

    http://www.corpnews.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1760

  • http://www.edgecase.net/devsite/ Cael

    > So, this is obviously the community team\’e2\’80\’99s fault for not doing a better job of keeping the boss off the boards.

    Remarkably, whenever Smed posts, he not only makes a lot of sense but manages not to infuriate the mass of the community.

    I’ve just seen two (count ‘em) three-year SWG vets cancel over the combination of Chris Cao’s slap to the players (as they see it), the pisspoor smuggling implementation and Helios’ announcement that spice has been removed forever “because it’s unwholesome”.

    As opposed to the completely wholesome act of drinking a load of brandy and then going out and killing 20,000 people in order to get a new suit of armour as a reward, of course.

  • http://stripeybank.blogspot.com/ Meili

    Ahahaha what a nice guy, flaming the people paying his salary. He is an idiot, the tone of that post is completely wrong.

    From my own experience, yes most players do not post in forums. Those who do post are either the hardcore players or those who have a particular grievance against the game and/or people in it.

    However, a lot more people read than post, especially in SWG as you don’t even need to create an account to read – how sure is Cao of his 80% figure? I’m pretty sure players do read it whenever a major change comes along. Perhaps what he means is that 80% don’t *regularly* read/post.

  • xaldin

    The real gotcha that the metrics don’t show is what those forum poster’s ingame network is. There can be few folks on the boards, but if those few are the guild leaders of every major guild on a server you better believe the impact of their views is higher than a 1:1 relationship.

  • http://www.grimwell.com Grimwell

    While the metrics are useful, I think that a smart game company would choose to not have official message boards. Instead partner with a major fansite and support their ‘fan boards’ unofficially and give them exclusives and whatnot in exchange for their metrics.

    Offload all the liability, responsibility, and hubris — and still get the benefits.

  • http://www.overmoderated.com Nomad

    Official message boards are nice if you have the staff to keep them clean. There’s also the advantage of being able to track metrics more easily, and link forum accounts with game accounts. It’s a pretty sizable investment, though, and it’s my opinion that if a company can’t or won’t make the investment in moderation staff (and decent software) than working with a fansite is better than doing official boards badly.

  • Pingback: Flash of Steel » Blog Archive » Gaming forums - who are these people?

  • Heather Sinclair

    “\’e2\’80\’9cThe really odd thing was that for many people, this logic made sense.\’e2\’80\’9d

    You seem to be implying that this doesn\’e2\’80\’99t make sense. Think you could clarify?”

    It certainly made a lot of sense to me at the time (even though I was one of the people screaming from the other side – and even though I already apologized to Sanya, I’ll apologize again for playing the forums), but overall the thought of overpowering a class or race, flying in the face of any reasonble person’s idea of class balance, for no reason other than to ‘make up’ for nerfing a completely different class that needed it is downright insane. (because you know, some of them rerolled, and yeah, they’re still very upset, and won’t you be nice to them for a change?)

  • Double_D

    This is why Sony will not turn around.

    Those who post in the forums are those who like to to hear themselves talk, voice issues and complaints and play the boards.

    Those 20% are the WORD OF MOUTH of the game. Most likely those who visit the boards are the ones getting their friends to play. Those ‘fans’ You know the short form of ‘fanatic’ is what gets the sheeple interested.

  • http://ambernight.org Amber

    One of my objections to companies running their own boards has been exactly this problem. The “board gamers” think they’ve got a direct ear to the devs, and not unlike a Jerry Springer guest, will do everything they can to get the attention they feel they so richly deserve.

    Partnering with fan sites has always worked much better for both the community and the company. A good community relations manager (*cough*Sanya*cough*) can make all the difference in the world by making the rounds and keeping the rumor mill down to at least a dull roar. “Official” boards are just too concentrated, and too easy a target for trouble makers.

    Having said that, I have a hard time sympathizing with SOE over anything related to SWG. They have treated the license, the game, and their players terribly. Honestly I don’t think there’s anything the SWG team can do at this point to regain player trust.

  • Heather Sinclair

    “Those 20% are the WORD OF MOUTH of the game.”

    And the 80% are the ones paying the bills. You ALWAYS have to keep in mind when listening to the 20% that if you follow their suggestions, you may well be alienating the silent majority.. and then for some strange unknown reason, your game no longer has any retention.

  • http://www.eqclerics.org Boanerges

    As a vet of Whineplay (SOE’s first attempts at boards) I can say that things have come a LONG way for SOE as a company. I mean this was the company that had Gordon “Abashi” Wrinn as its CS rep on the boards. This is the guy who coined the phrase “That’s not a bug, it’s a feature” and committed every sin that will get you fired from that job nowadays (among them, stating that the players are lying about something being broken). And it was called Whineplay because threads had to be chain bumped until they got some sort of response (or locked). Rational discussion was virtually impossible but it helped to put a one Lum the Mad on the map with EQ players as a place to actually get results. Scott got Gordon fired and actually had John Smedley himself show up on several occasions to deal with major problems. Of course, the fact that Scott’s forums lent him to warn people not to descend to “f***tard” level is beside the point.

    I think the current EQlive forums are vastly more stable and while there’s still the occasional “ZOMG NERF WTF” the forums are actually, you know, functional. Devs feel free to comment in general forum threads and things tend to get fixed or addressed more easily. Then again, EQ doesn’t have the players WoW does and I think the number of whiners is proportional to the total number players.

    As for the 80%… I think Rich hit the nail on the head. If the SWG boards are like the other SOE boards you need to use your station login (the user/pass combo to let you into all SOE games) to log into the boards. My personal guess is they’re saying 80% of the playerbase doesn’t log in. It’s a poor metric since many people just simply read without logging in and still more read info from third party boards and still more get info disseminated through game channels.

  • scottj

    > Scott got Gordon fired

    Ironically, Gordon had asked to be moved to the EQ2 team, and his move was delayed by my calling for his head because SOE didn’t want to appear to be pandering to the yellow press.

  • Kohs

    “and then for some strange unknown reason, your game no longer has any retention.”

    which is exactly what happened in SWG, as each new publish saw more and more attention paid to the Jedi, who were clearly the vocaliest of the vocal “i wnt 2 b teh ub4r!” folks on the SWG forums.

    and by the way.
    80% of no one is… hmm… well, let’s see here. no one, divided by…

    well, that’d be, roughly, no one!
    congratulations Cao! dumbass.

  • http://www.thisisnotacommunity.org D-0ne

    Lum did not get Gordon fired.

    Gordon Wrinn was actually, in 20/20 hindsight one of the most honest community managers ever.

    Raph got it right. The game boards and the game *are* the same game.

    Look at the WoW forums. That forum is played exactly the same way the game is played. You’d have to be blind or in deep denial not to see it.

  • Hiding my name

    Heck Lum, why cite SotS, a 4x game, when you can cite MMO forums like DDO’s beta forums or (it is rumored — I don’t have access) Vanguard’s beta forums.

    The DDO beta clearly revealed the legion of flaws in the game but there were enough buttlicking fanboys on the forums that anyone attempting to offer constructive criticism got shouted down. The crappy and (afaik) failed launch of DDO is the result.

    Similarly, Vanguard’s forums are rumored (on FoH, at least) to have a similar dynamic of crazy Vanbois who shout down anyone that criticizes the retro-EQ-style doomed-to-bomb gameplay.

  • http://www.overmoderated.com Nomad

    “Buttlicking fanbois” ain’t subtle, and any CM worth his or her salt can weight their feedback appropriately. If a given feature or lack thereof made it to launch, the problem most likely had nothing at all to do with the fanbois.

  • Heather Sinclair

    No, DDO wasn’t “blinded by buttlicking fanbois”, it’s that the “constructive criticism” was generally stuff like “you need 6 races (the ones from the ECS and PHB) FIX NOW!” or “insert other major feature”, and when you’re doing that in late beta only a few months before launch and probably AFTER code complete, what do you expect, everyone to jump up and go “WE DIDN’T REALIZE THAT! WE WILL FIX THAT IMMEDIATELY! THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELPFUL FEEDBACK!”. It’s like saying “I said daoc should add housing in beta and they didn’t listen, and they only realized their mistake 2 years later!” – well, no – that’s not how the world works.

  • http://razorwire.warcry.com razor

    Beta forums are seperated from Launch forums by the prospective customer vs. customer who uses them. You can’t really compare the environment of the two, seeing as how many of your more vocal beta members may end up bailing on launch anyway.

    Also the DDO beta did not clearly reveal the legion of flaws inherent in the game. Only upon launching the game into the wild did many of the most critical issues make themselves known. Were there “buttlicking fanbois”? Yes. But the amount of the other members of the community shouting down those reporting bugs or gameplay issues should not have mattered if there was a *good* CM team present to handle it. I have my own opinions about that.

    I thought FoH were a bunch of crazy buttlicking fanbois themselves? (I kid) One of the things that CM’s have to deal with, is the rumor mill. I myself have been guilty of posting speculation on my website, but anything I have posted has been derived from some source that I do trust as being accurate. I haven’t seen the Vanguard beta forums either, but I’m not prepared to accept the explanation of the gameplay until I’ve experienced it myself.

    Back on topic, somewhat, official forums are only viable if you have a team that can manage them. To think that players are not going to voice opions when you give them the opportunity to do so is naive. If what the players are telling you is not the things you want to hear, then either stop listening, or look into why they are saying them. If you want your customers playing your game and not your forums, don’t have forums.

  • IanB

    I’d like to be critical of SOE on their handling of their boards, but honestly, at least they have their own boards. Trying to communicate with Mythic via the boards was like pulling teeth, and I had Pendragon board access!

    The WoW boards are a zoo, but at least useful information can be found there (assuming they’re not crashing.)

    I think Cryptic probably does the best job of communication still, although it isn’t as great as it once was.

  • naladini

    “And the 80% are the ones paying the bills. You ALWAYS have to keep in mind when listening to the 20% that if you follow their suggestions, you may well be alienating the silent majority.. and then for some strange unknown reason, your game no longer has any retention. “

    Ahhh, but since when do the 20% speak with one, unified voice?

    I could see that comparison being valid if the 20% were asking for in game rewards based on how high your post count is, but typically, the 20% is quite fractured and coming from varying playstyles.

    The 20% won’t represent every viewpoint found in the 80%, but its possible for them to come close, if you can cut past the BS in some of the post wars.

  • http://mythicalblog.com/ Jeff Freeman

    Wow. If only there were professionals who handled community forums for a living.

    I still think official forums are bad. Some people take that to mean that I don’t think devs should be on the internet, but those people are ridiculous.

    Oh, I also think that you should *say* you think forums are great, and just keep to yourself the knowledge that they’re bad. And also you should tell people that your community manager’s title is “Executive Design Director” or such.

    Nobody wants to talk to a freakin’ community relations manager.

    Forums are great!

  • http://razorwire.warcry.com razor

    Devs should absolutely be on the internet, they should just be very mindful of what they say on their blogs.

  • scottj

    >_<

  • watchahuh?

    I agree with Razor on this one. There is no issue with devs being on the internet, but there is a level of tact they should use. Unfortunately, not all devs understand that level of tact. They then cause an issue for the community manager to solve or calm. It is easy to cause problems and say “What’s the big deal?!” when you don’t have to fix the problems or monitor the fallout.

    Instead of getting irritated at people saying devs shouldn’t be on the internet, maybe you should figure out WHY it is said, and especially why it is being said by more than one person. Believe me, it isn’t jealousy.

  • Brenlo

    So to spin my little piece of propaganda here. =)

    We are absolutely commited to the forum community at SOE. We do believe they have value and a strong purpose. While individuals within a large corporation may disagree, the truth can be seen in the fact that we do have official forums and will continue to do so. In spite of all of the ups and downs, particularly with the SWG community, we have remained dedicated to the forum system.

    As a whole the community relations team here at SOE feels strongly that forums are a large part of our community interaction. There are many gems to be found in a forum community, you just need solid personnel to seperate the good from the bad, to filter thru all of the noise that we know is there. As Scott pointed out, we have dedicated folks just for handling forum communication. =)

    I am a big believer in more dev interaction with the community. The downside is that sometimes things are said that are not always in the best interest of community building. Then we get to do one of the least fun parts of our jobs and clean it up. However, even as frustrating as this can be, we will not be restricting folks from participating on the forums. We have to take that bad, with all the good that can come from open developer subscriber information.

    (As an aside, the 80% number is not totally valid, we know that about 80% of subscribers never log into the forums, however we do not know how many acutally view them as you can view them without logging in)

  • http://gamemarketmetrics.com Allen Sligar

    First of all: Great website, I lurk here once in awhile.

    20%

    Think of these 20% of people as gamers who are guildleaders, for guilds of anywhere between 5 and 250 people, in other words customers who influence other customers, customers who are deeply embedded into a game. Customers who if they leave, take other customers with them.

    “Remarkably, whenever Smed posts, he not only makes a lot of sense but manages not to infuriate the mass of the community.”

    I didnt realize it was April 1st today…..

  • http://gamemarketmetrics.com Allen Sligar

    Sorry that came off as a snotty. I actually do read Smedlys blog, he cares a lot about the industry and the players obviously and his recent post about his concern for minors and inappropriate chat is both timely and shows a concern for broader issues that impact players.

    But quite frankly he should stay off the SWG boards…the tone and tenor of those boards has always lent itself to really bad communication since launch.

  • http://www.beafraid.com Hellfire

    “This is why Sony will not turn around.”

    Uh, no. The reason is trying to compete with the 7+ million-strong behemoth that is WoW on WoW’s terms ala EQ2 or by pandering to it’s opposite ala Vanguard. Just for reference the opposite of an unqualified success is not really what you should be shooting for during development.

    The Vanguard forums (and /worldsay) are horrible environments, NDA be damned. The only opinions that are valid are the equivalent of Vanguard > oxygen, or to a slightly lesser extent anything that bashes WoW. Kudos for a world gone stupid.

    The best thing Sigil/SOE could do right this second to improve the chances that Vanguard would be a player in the post-WoW MMOverse is to cancel the accounts of every single “tester” in the game right now and bring in a completely fresh batch.

    By comparison the WoW forums are like heaven. Of course that comparison is one akin to a bedpan overflowing with #1 vs one overflowing with #1 AND #2. Playing the forums is like second nature to the majority of the WoW CMs. Favorites are played and personal biases are frequently exposed. Depending on the day of the week it’s not readily apparent if “facilitating customer communication” is even on their minds. Like this, for example.

  • IanB

    Kalgan is a dev, not a CM.

  • http://ve3d.ign.com/ Apache

    Depends on the game I think. If you mix official + fan site boards, the percentage is going to be much higher.

  • Agmon

    I’ve maintained for years that official boards are a bad idea. Why on earth would you want to provide a spot for your customers to publicly trash your product? You’d get better info by reading through fan sites on a regular rotation plus then you can hire people who are only required to collect data and not spend their days damping down flame wars and trying to have rational conversations with people who just want to fling feces.

  • http://www.crimsonmercinaries.com Starbuck1771

    Firstly I would like to say that I’m one of those in the 20% who he claims trolls the forums. However I do play the game and only post when I feel the community is being shafted. If you search for my name you will see I have about 1800 posts over the almost 3 years I have been playing most were in nge testing forums or bug report threads.
    However Chris’s metric system is completely off the mark as many of the players in swg now have two or more accounts. The reason that so many dont post is that from the issue of nge it has become painfully clear that SWG devs don’t actualy care what the playerbase wants. In the topic Chris Cao made it was more or less made clear that if you dont agree with him you are wrong.

    That is the wrong message to send out to anyone. I play many mmo’s [ie. eve online, wow, mxo,planetside,& DDO] and never had I seen such disrespect to players as I have in SWG. I may be biased as I am a player/poster but the anger torward SOE/LA is much deserved. Respect of the players must be earned after a disaster such as the nge which 90% of the playerbase was against yet they were ignored by soe who pushed it through despite the requests not to.

  • http://www.crimsonmercenaries.com Starbuck1771

    http://soe.lithium.com/swg/board/message?board.id=swggpdiscussion&message.id=1165606&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

    Here is the link to Cao’s post for those who want the full verson with all replies and Chris’s responces as well.

  • http://www.damnedvulpine.com J.

    “We are absolutely commited to the forum community at SOE. We do believe they have value and a strong purpose.”

    What exactly was Cao’s purpose in making the post that he made? Exactly what message was meant to be sent, and what effect was expected?

  • http://none BrendaG

    If Jeff didn’t think communication was important then he wouldn’t CARE if official forums were bad for it. You shouldn’t use him as the un-raph example. People who really want to ignore the players don’t have anything that you can link to.

  • Myrdinn

    Have to give a nod to Helios, though, he was on late last night trying to clear up ChrisCao’s posts; and doing a good job of dealing with the most terrible of us (I know, I think I am now part of that 20%).

    To Brenlo (as we don’t seem to get much looks from ya’ll on our own forums): I, and the remains of the guild who are left in game, are still waiting on what will happen with crafting… please, keep ChrisCao away from it. We’d like our current digital home to have a chance, again.

    To the NDA violator of Vanguard: I’d rather have corpse runs, than a dev who thinks my profession (or the professions of my friends) is a hockey puck.

  • Kohs

    and it’s locked.
    Thundertool got the last word in of course.

    in retrospect of ChrisCao’s flaming/trolling post. it could be worse.
    SWG could still have Tiggs! /puke

  • kissodeath

    LOL…its funny reading the forums of people who think forums are useless…

  • http://www.corpnews.com Andrew Crystall

    Forums are one indicator. But that dosn’t mean others should be neglected.

    Entrance and exit polls in a game (pop up the poll on the “do you want to quit” window, let them 1-click it…) and so on can give you a wider idea if something on a forum is viewed as a wider issue.

    Something to my knowledge NOT yet done is targeted ones – say asking all your Shamens if they think x y or z is a bigger issue…

  • IanB

    And here’s Mythic weighing in on the subject again:

    http://www.warhammeralliance.com/forums/showpost.php?p=153269&postcount=13

    Apparently Mythic hasn’t learned from their communication mistakes of the past. I’m guessing they’ll foist the forum job off on someone like VN again, subjecting the players to the crappy unpaid moderation of fellow players. As bad as any official forum can be, VN is much worse.