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	<title>Comments on: Nation States And The Social Ganker</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/</link>
	<description>Random Comments About Gaming And Tractors</description>
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		<title>By: Psychochild&#039;s Blog &#187; PvP lessons from multiple games</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7241</link>
		<dc:creator>Psychochild&#039;s Blog &#187; PvP lessons from multiple games</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Oct 2010 23:21:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7241</guid>
		<description>[...] has an article on PvP over on his site where he talks about PvP in terms of &quot;gang warfare&quot;. An interesting topic where he [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has an article on PvP over on his site where he talks about PvP in terms of &quot;gang warfare&quot;. An interesting topic where he [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7240</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 21:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7240</guid>
		<description>1. Accessibility. Whatever your PvP model is, I have to be able to get into it and out of it within a reasonable amount of time. This isn&#039;t the hardcore vs. casual argument, this is the &quot;my 5 year old needs me for 20 minutes - but I WILL be back&quot;.

DAOC did this effectively with the zerg (you could leave without severely hamstringing your group - you could also rejoin with a minimum of waiting).

WOW did this with BGs (but broke this for all other end game content).

2. Balance. Your system needs to self balance the play given the numbers that are currently playing. In my mind, this isn&#039;t ideally done as WOW did it (BGs of a limited number of players) but closer to DAOC - the side with the fewest players plays defense, and defense should be easier than offense. Perhaps toss some NPCs into the mix to keep things interesting.

3. Control. I should be in control of my PvP experience. If I want to PvP, it is there. If I don&#039;t, I can get away from it. Once again see DAOC and WOW.

4. Equitability. Cannot be overstated. WOW broke this very badly - PvPing with raid level gear was a cruise control win against those without. If you are trying to get new players to PvP, a good introduction is not to tell them they have no shot until they have amassed items X, Y, &amp; Z.

Other than that, I agree with the points in the main article. PvP SHOULD feel like you are playing against very intelligent NPCs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Accessibility. Whatever your PvP model is, I have to be able to get into it and out of it within a reasonable amount of time. This isn&#8217;t the hardcore vs. casual argument, this is the &#8220;my 5 year old needs me for 20 minutes &#8211; but I WILL be back&#8221;.</p>
<p>DAOC did this effectively with the zerg (you could leave without severely hamstringing your group &#8211; you could also rejoin with a minimum of waiting).</p>
<p>WOW did this with BGs (but broke this for all other end game content).</p>
<p>2. Balance. Your system needs to self balance the play given the numbers that are currently playing. In my mind, this isn&#8217;t ideally done as WOW did it (BGs of a limited number of players) but closer to DAOC &#8211; the side with the fewest players plays defense, and defense should be easier than offense. Perhaps toss some NPCs into the mix to keep things interesting.</p>
<p>3. Control. I should be in control of my PvP experience. If I want to PvP, it is there. If I don&#8217;t, I can get away from it. Once again see DAOC and WOW.</p>
<p>4. Equitability. Cannot be overstated. WOW broke this very badly &#8211; PvPing with raid level gear was a cruise control win against those without. If you are trying to get new players to PvP, a good introduction is not to tell them they have no shot until they have amassed items X, Y, &amp; Z.</p>
<p>Other than that, I agree with the points in the main article. PvP SHOULD feel like you are playing against very intelligent NPCs.</p>
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		<title>By: Voyages in Eternity</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7187</link>
		<dc:creator>Voyages in Eternity</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 12:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7187</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Thoughts on&#160;PvP...&lt;/strong&gt;

Mr. Jennings at Broken Toys, and Mr. Green of Psychochild&#8217;s blog have both penned recent blog entries reflecting on PvP playstyles, offering some evolving insight on what seems to work, what doesn&#8217;t, and go into a bit of brainstorming on w...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Thoughts on&nbsp;PvP&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Mr. Jennings at Broken Toys, and Mr. Green of Psychochild&#8217;s blog have both penned recent blog entries reflecting on PvP playstyles, offering some evolving insight on what seems to work, what doesn&#8217;t, and go into a bit of brainstorming on w&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: PJ&#8217;s Attic: imagine a world &#187; Proof of Life</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7198</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ&#8217;s Attic: imagine a world &#187; Proof of Life</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7198</guid>
		<description>[...] PVP post (link). PVP post tomorrow (link). PVP post tomorrow which dovetails nicely with my previous posts on perma-death in the MOG space [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] PVP post (link). PVP post tomorrow (link). PVP post tomorrow which dovetails nicely with my previous posts on perma-death in the MOG space [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Moorgard.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; PvP Is for Suckers! (Prove Me Wrong, Suckers!)</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7197</link>
		<dc:creator>Moorgard.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; PvP Is for Suckers! (Prove Me Wrong, Suckers!)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:48:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7197</guid>
		<description>[...] noticed that Lum got an awful lot of traffic when he wrote about PvP philosophy, and Psychochild cashed in as well. This lends some weight to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] noticed that Lum got an awful lot of traffic when he wrote about PvP philosophy, and Psychochild cashed in as well. This lends some weight to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: slog</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7196</link>
		<dc:creator>slog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7196</guid>
		<description>Actually, I think SB sold over 150k boxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I think SB sold over 150k boxes.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Crystall</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7194</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Crystall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:26:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7194</guid>
		<description>Slog - sure. And Eve&#039;s how many times more popular than Shadowbane ever was? It&#039;s interesting, actually, that Eve has succeeded in making a slow-burn game compared to the typical fast-burn MMO model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slog &#8211; sure. And Eve&#8217;s how many times more popular than Shadowbane ever was? It&#8217;s interesting, actually, that Eve has succeeded in making a slow-burn game compared to the typical fast-burn MMO model.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7195</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7195</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure how many of you have had the opportunity to listen to multiple-input voice communication systems, but that&#039;s part of my job.

An average person, with some training, can do about 2 full-scale conversations at once.

An exceptional person can manage 4 communication channels at once, tracking everything that&#039;s happening on them.

Considering the speed of most people for type vs voice, even 2 channels provides far more data than trying to watch (and type) your conversations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure how many of you have had the opportunity to listen to multiple-input voice communication systems, but that&#8217;s part of my job.</p>
<p>An average person, with some training, can do about 2 full-scale conversations at once.</p>
<p>An exceptional person can manage 4 communication channels at once, tracking everything that&#8217;s happening on them.</p>
<p>Considering the speed of most people for type vs voice, even 2 channels provides far more data than trying to watch (and type) your conversations.</p>
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		<title>By: slog</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7193</link>
		<dc:creator>slog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7193</guid>
		<description>And what else to SB and Eve have in common?

Both were dropped by their publishers early on because of lack of revenue!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And what else to SB and Eve have in common?</p>
<p>Both were dropped by their publishers early on because of lack of revenue!!</p>
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		<title>By: Calenth</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/comment-page-2/#comment-7192</link>
		<dc:creator>Calenth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sjennings.wordpress.com/2007/02/20/nation-states-and-the-social-ganker/#comment-7192</guid>
		<description>[quote]People who lose outright at PvP MMOs quit, and that’s something as an alliance you have to sort of hope for because that’s the only way you can exterminate these fuckers once and for all.
[/quote]

It&#039;s not just people who lose outright at persistent-world pvp who quit; people who win outright tend to quit as well, because the game gets too goddam boring. That&#039;s why I left shadowbane, the game just got old when we were curbstomping everyone with no opposition.

Eve&#039;s solution to this -- and the place they went right where Shadowbane failed -- was to simply make the world so big that it was effectively impossible for any one group to completely control it. Anyone who lost could always travel to another region of the galaxy and rebuild. The &quot;lowsec&quot; areas -- areas where pvp is allowed, but the space isnt&#039; conquerable, and everyone can dock at the NPC stations -- help with this, as it gives alliances kicked out of 0.0 an area they can&#039;t get kicked out of but can still make some cash.

That said, yeah, it&#039;s true that people who lose at persistent-world-pvp mmo&#039;s like shadowbane or eve tend to quit. But the upside is that people who are interested in that kind of high-risk PVP will play your game in preference to a low-risk-pvp game like WoW. So if you&#039;re developing a game in a market that has to compete with WoW, catering to a niche market that WoW doesn&#039;t cater to can be a smart business strategy. Which is part of why Eve has continued to grow as much as it has .It&#039;s a niche market game, but in a market dominated by 1000 pound gorillas, offering something different and unique can be a smart move.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[quote]People who lose outright at PvP MMOs quit, and that’s something as an alliance you have to sort of hope for because that’s the only way you can exterminate these fuckers once and for all.<br />
[/quote]</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not just people who lose outright at persistent-world pvp who quit; people who win outright tend to quit as well, because the game gets too goddam boring. That&#8217;s why I left shadowbane, the game just got old when we were curbstomping everyone with no opposition.</p>
<p>Eve&#8217;s solution to this &#8212; and the place they went right where Shadowbane failed &#8212; was to simply make the world so big that it was effectively impossible for any one group to completely control it. Anyone who lost could always travel to another region of the galaxy and rebuild. The &#8220;lowsec&#8221; areas &#8212; areas where pvp is allowed, but the space isnt&#8217; conquerable, and everyone can dock at the NPC stations &#8212; help with this, as it gives alliances kicked out of 0.0 an area they can&#8217;t get kicked out of but can still make some cash.</p>
<p>That said, yeah, it&#8217;s true that people who lose at persistent-world-pvp mmo&#8217;s like shadowbane or eve tend to quit. But the upside is that people who are interested in that kind of high-risk PVP will play your game in preference to a low-risk-pvp game like WoW. So if you&#8217;re developing a game in a market that has to compete with WoW, catering to a niche market that WoW doesn&#8217;t cater to can be a smart business strategy. Which is part of why Eve has continued to grow as much as it has .It&#8217;s a niche market game, but in a market dominated by 1000 pound gorillas, offering something different and unique can be a smart move.</p>
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