Darkfall Psychoanalytics

Posted on February 27, 2009 by Scott Jennings| 203 Comments

Protip: if you are amused by the long dark nightmare that is the Darkfall community’s soul, it’s probably because you were a whiny baby in UO. (By the way, Syncaine, playing UO in the Good Old Days wasn’t exactly rocket science.)

Remember: Darkfall – STRICTLY FOR THE HARDCORE. To remind you of this, we leave you with some out of context quotes from Darkfall’s Community Manager, who, given the launch and the general nature of Darkfall’s community, is probably drinking heavily RIGHT NOW.

<@Brannoc> I’d be happy to tell you to go fuck yourselves! But a lot of people say that’s bad PR
<@Brannoc> so…I’m trying not to

Mudkipslolwu: Brannoc can i get you to comment on the nude photos that have recently surfaced including both you and tasos?
<@Brannoc> my penis is bigger, Mudkipslolwu

In other Darkfall news (Broken Toys: All Darkfall, All the time! Well, until someone else releases an MMO.), Keen of Keen & Graev has a non-schadenfreudy launch day recap.

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  • TariqOne

    That’s quite an IRC log.

    All the “it was our dream too,” “no one is more disappointed than we are,” “we’re not in it for the money” is sort reassuring, whether they really mean any of it or not. Because it shows that even Aventurine gets that this is a damnable snafu, even if many of the more rabid superfans cannot.

    In a way I feel sorry for Aventurine. It was a massive project and now we know that they just didn’t have the know-how or the ability. But the ultra-hardcore apologists dripping with contempt, well — that’s what makes it all rather enjoyable at the end of the day.

  • http://wnw.blogwarhammer.net Regis

    So *that’s* why CMs are trying not to get too involved in the community. Quite bizarre to see.

  • http://www.thisisnotacommunity.org D-0ne

    Gosh, why would anyone thing sociopaths are attracted to PvP games?!? I mean there’s no published clinical data or anything.

    Just some minor anecdotal stuff, like community manager statements and player youtube posts and developer comments and a community message board full of anti-social behavior… nothing real definitive in all that.

  • http://syncaine.wordpress.com Syncaine

    Not rocket science, an MMO? (outside of EVE) Odd, reading your site back then would have made it seem like it was, given your struggles.

    As others have pointed out though, you seem terrible afraid that something with PvP might be successful, and that would somehow trigger the apocalypse. Or worse yet, show that all your years of ‘no PvP’ ranting was misguided. Who knows, maybe even an expert like you, with all those successfully launched MMO titles under your belt, might not have all the answers regarding MMOs.

  • http://mrtact.com/blog Tim Keating

    I find myself thinking “I can’t wait to see this turd sink to the bottom of the bowl.” Is that schadenfreude?

    MrTact

  • dartwick

    Apparently half the internet is trying to to cover up a mind numbing simple exploit that makes you practically immune to damage in PVP.

  • Vetarnias

    From schadenfreude to Sigmund Freud. Nice step.

    In a way, I feel sorry for Aventurine. But they deliberately went after the rowdiest demographic imaginable. They should have known what to expect in terms of “loyalty” and “gratitude”.

  • http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

    Syncaine :

    Not rocket science, an MMO? (outside of EVE) Odd, reading your site back then would have made it seem like it was, given your struggles.

    Hurrr? I ‘struggled’ with UO? Whaa? I was one of the first GM blacksmiths on Siege Perilous – you remember, the ‘hardcore shard’? Heck, I even wrote a guide for it.

    I also worked on “something with PvP” for over 5 years. I was not ‘terribly afraid that would be successful’, because I liked getting bonuses.

    You are correct that I don’t have all the answers, though! I eagerly await yours, since you apparently do. (Hint: ad hominem attacks do you no favors.)

  • http://www.worldiv.com Tuebit

    When you read the quote above with an additional bit of context, the sentiment changes completely.

    [Yew]Greg: Well heres a little helpful peice of advise if you ladies plan on keeping any sort of player base. Even in the shittiest circumstances, atleast tell us to just “fuck off we’re working on it”. Thats all most of us want to know.

    I’d be happy to tell you to go fuck yourselves! But a lot of people say that’s bad PR

    so…I’m trying not to

    Have you never ranted about blogger / game reporting ethics?

  • http://simple-n-complex.blogspot.com Openedge1

    @Tuebit
    Well, seems our Lum is cherry picking comments….scary..

    But oh so fun!

  • http://[email protected] JuJutsu

    “I also worked on “something with PvP” for over 5 years.”

    That doesn’t count; only FFA with full-looting counts. RvR is for wussies [non-sociopaths].

  • http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

    Have you never ranted about blogger / game reporting ethics?

    I’m pretty sure that if any company representative (including me) said “I’d be happy to tell you to go fuck yourselves! But, I shouldn’t!” in a public forum, they would not be excused by the context of the question.

    Admittedly the context does make it amusing instead of merely crass. Which I thought I communicated adequately already. Shrug.

  • http://www.drunkenbeggarclan.com Red Morgan

    @D-0ne
    Stereotyping and demonizing an entire group of people who enjoy different hobbies certainly wouldn’t be considered sociopathic behavior, now would it?

  • Vetarnias

    And that chatlog just makes me think that Darkfall might be the first lunatic asylum where the staff might as well be alumni of the place.

    I still can’t come to terms with how unprofessional, arrogant, and just plain stupid that transcript was.

  • Hanna

    I’ve never read your old posts before, so that was kind of a shocker.

    You were seriously nerdraging back then. Was kinda scary.

    And it kind of occurs to me that maybe this whole Darkfall thing is bringing that all up again. It seems like. From reading what you’re writing lately. Maybe just a little bit? I’m just concerned is all. You know your own state of mind better than I possibly can, so please forgive me for the presumptuousness of this comment. And even if you are and are okay with it, that’s okay. I just thought I might point out the possibility just in case it might be helpful (cause sometimes other people need to tell me when I’ve gone a little too far into my own head).

    In all kindness and sincerity.

  • http://adamsimportantshow.blogspot.com adam

    I hope you’re indulging in hyperbole when you say Darkfall is strictly for the hardcore. I’m not hardcore, but I see Darkfall as appealing because of the philosophy behind it, that is, allowing players to manage the world instead of being constantly babysat by the overlords, like WoW or almost any other MMOG. It is true, there are a lot of players that want to and will make life miserable for other players when the developers hand the keys over in such a way, but I am strongly of the opinion that this is absolutely the future of persistent online gaming. The job of designers is to set up rules that give EVERY player, regardless of in-game morality, the tools to shape his or her sphere of influence as he or she sees fit, while being subject to the consequences (good or bad) thereof.

    The theme-park design, while effective, is a tiny drop in the vast ocean of persistent online interaction and content, and the only way to take steps towards tapping that potential is to allow your players to make and remake the world, and the only way to do that is to allow them to do what they want, good or bad, right or wrong. Removing freedom of choice or even the possibility of freedom of choice destroys your players belief in your world as something more than a game or a toy. If that’s all you want your experience to be, simply a game or a toy, then so be it. Play WoW. If you want something truly great, truly memorable and lasting, you have to let your players decide how they want to play and then give them the ability to do so.

    If you want to understand more of what I’m getting at, read my blog. I discuss it in detail.

  • Benevolent Dictator

    @Hanna

    Hanna,

    Nerdrage? Scary? Lum’s posts were some of the very best examples of MMO blogging this community has ever seen.

    Darkfall has been under development – “Just you wait, pussies!” – for a very long time. Lum’s mocking of the community for the endless “uber macho I pwn you” dynamics is a public service.

  • http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

    Hanna :

    You were seriously nerdraging back then. Was kinda scary.

    The quoted UO-era post was written in EXTREME NERDRAGE, yes. There were funnier ones from back then, mostly involving the blog being ghostwritten by small cute puppies.

  • http://bdadv.blogspot.com Bonedead

    I’ve got the strangest feeling of deja vu after reading all of this.

  • http://www.thisisnotacommunity.org D-0ne

    @Red Morgan
    Again. Why would anyone think sociopaths would be attracted to PvP?

    One indicator is reflection. Offend a sociopath and regardless of the context they will reflect their perception. Usually they reflect and attempt massive retaliation over the most minor of offenses. An analogy? People who get in fist fights because someone looked at them wrong. More extreme? People who kill helpless animals like kittens and puppies.

    Perhaps it’s the whole anti-social behaviors are not punished thing? Nothing like being able to attack and kill the helpless with impunity and the only reward? Being able to attack and kill without repercussion.

    Or maybe it’s the youtube posts of someone claiming to “be like Darwin” as they attack noobs at their spawn point? That is called Histrionic behavior.

    Or maybe it’s the communities own message board, where even those who are in control lack self control?

  • TariqOne

    adam :I hope you’re indulging in hyperbole when you say Darkfall is strictly for the hardcore. I’m not hardcore, but I see Darkfall as appealing because of the philosophy behind it, that is, allowing players to manage the world instead of being constantly babysat by the overlords, like WoW or almost any other MMOG.

    I was interested in Darkfall for just these reasons.

    That said, it’s become very apparent that the Darkfall promised is not the Darkfall delivered. The player-designed housing morphing into BUILD-HERE clan cities only is the best example that, move along, this is not the “sandbox” you are looking for.

  • Hanna

    Everything’s okay then.

    I’m so Carebear, I never even ever head of Darkfall except for here and recently. I am gathering that there is a history and that there is some controversy in the comments and all that which I’d rather stay out of and that’s fine, cause everyone else does it all so much better.

    Just my over-concerned thing going on. Sorry.

    Back to our regularly scheduled mocking then. All is well.

    I’ve heard that performing public services is all part of the economic stimulus package. I hope you’ll be getting your big fat stimulus check soon Scott.

  • http://www.drunkenbeggarclan.com Red Morgan

    @D-0ne

    Let me guess, you were one of those kids that got hit in the face with a dodgeball and harbored a secret hatred for dodgeball players for the rest of your life.

    Some people just enjoy the excitement of player vs player competition. I for one, can’t stand the grindy chatrooms you might call a MMORPG, but you won’t see me complaining that other people do happen to enjoy it. Your nosey-old-neighbor-looking-out-the-window-and-scowling-at-kids-playing-across-the-street complex is way more disturbing than any anti-social behavior I’ve seen exhibited by any PvP gamer.

  • Vivianne Draper

    yer mocking me aren’t you? ;p

  • Vetarnias

    TariqOne :

    adam :I hope you’re indulging in hyperbole when you say Darkfall is strictly for the hardcore. I’m not hardcore, but I see Darkfall as appealing because of the philosophy behind it, that is, allowing players to manage the world instead of being constantly babysat by the overlords, like WoW or almost any other MMOG.

    I was interested in Darkfall for just these reasons.
    That said, it’s become very apparent that the Darkfall promised is not the Darkfall delivered. The player-designed housing morphing into BUILD-HERE clan cities only is the best example that, move along, this is not the “sandbox” you are looking for.

    When I heard of the “build here” aspect of the game, I thought exactly the same thing.

    First, because I was a latecomer to Shadowbane (December 2007-January 2008) and saw what happened when the map was not only stagnant because of zerg guilds, but that you couldn’t build a new city because all the spots were already taken.

    Second, because even Age of Conan had something rudimentary like that, and it was for all intents and purposes meaningless (I don’t think the guild I joined ever bothered to build it by the time I had left).

    Third, because the purpose of an open map should leave the player himself free to analyze the terrain and take the best course of action, instead of that initial land rush with tracts of land so clearly marked that every guild that played in beta knows which it wants to take over.

    When some large alliance already had ambitions, before the end of beta, of taking over 12 of the 100 spots available, it’s easy to imagine other alliances having similar ambitions, and 100 isn’t quite a large number anymore. So the Shadowbane scenario was inevitable sooner or later, with small guilds basically being left out and the big guys clobbering each other until one fell.

    It’s why the third point would have been great. I know my friends and I can’t rival with the big boys, so we would have, say, picked a small island far, far away from the main battlegrounds in the hope that they wouldn’t find us, or that they’d consider our territory so strategically worthless that they’d leave it alone.

    But, if I understand, that’s not even allowed in the current Darkfall. It’s just another bad design decision that probably came as a result of their limitations.

  • Vetarnias

    Red Morgan :
    @D-0ne
    Let me guess, you were one of those kids that got hit in the face with a dodgeball and harbored a secret hatred for dodgeball players for the rest of your life.
    Some people just enjoy the excitement of player vs player competition. I for one, can’t stand the grindy chatrooms you might call a MMORPG, but you won’t see me complaining that other people do happen to enjoy it. Your nosey-old-neighbor-looking-out-the-window-and-scowling-at-kids-playing-across-the-street complex is way more disturbing than any anti-social behavior I’ve seen exhibited by any PvP gamer.

    But you speak of PvP.

    Many of those guys playing Darkfall, if their forum postings are any indication, are anything but PvPers.

    A point of semantics, maybe, but zergballs and ganksquads are not what I would ever associate with PvP. They don’t want a challenge. They either do it for the kicks of griefing other players, or they’re so engaged in their “hardcoreness” that they shun any chance of losing as bad odds or a waste of time.

    Just look at the numerous instances of exploiting hitting the forums. Don’t tell me this is PvP. It’s just a game of beating the other guy through any means necessary, while your PvPer looks out for fair odds and a challenging engagement.

    My own guess is that PvP, in the honourable meaning of the word, is going to be stamped out of Darkfall very quickly by all the exploiters, ganksquads, and leet alliances who aren’t interested in a fair fight.

  • http://www.drunkenbeggarclan.com Red Morgan

    Vetarnias :
    But you speak of PvP.
    Many of those guys playing Darkfall, if their forum postings are any indication, are anything but PvPers.
    A point of semantics, maybe, but zergballs and ganksquads are not what I would ever associate with PvP. They don’t want a challenge. They either do it for the kicks of griefing other players, or they’re so engaged in their “hardcoreness” that they shun any chance of losing as bad odds or a waste of time.
    Just look at the numerous instances of exploiting hitting the forums. Don’t tell me this is PvP. It’s just a game of beating the other guy through any means necessary, while your PvPer looks out for fair odds and a challenging engagement.
    My own guess is that PvP, in the honourable meaning of the word, is going to be stamped out of Darkfall very quickly by all the exploiters, ganksquads, and leet alliances who aren’t interested in a fair fight.

    Well sure, there are griefers, gankers, power gamers, exploiters, zerglings, etc who’ve all been tossed in the Darkfall melting pot. I like to think that I’m none of those things, and I’m really looking forward to killing those twits.

    I have to say I disagree with you that PvP needs to be honorable. I find the word “fair” to be quite detestable, because I’ve never encountered such a thing as fairness my whole life. You don’t see people criticizing the great conquerors of the world for having greater numbers and superior weaponry, even though they almost always do.

    I lead a clan that is dwarfed in size by some of the massive zergs that will be coming to compete, and the small size is no accident. I think it will be fun to be smaller and to compete on that level. If someone feels like they want to be in a massive zergball, well good for them, I hope it’s fun.

    If you want completely fair competition, probably arena-style pvp is more of what you’re looking for. Personally, I prefer Open PvP and relish the thought of getting splattered by unfair odds.

  • Gx1080

    Well, the GMs obviously were picked from the most posters at the forums (at least is my impression). And Lum, sorry man but the memories of being in the middle of the UO warzone makes you biased. Sure it also makes you understanding of what kind of people can crawl of that place, but you are biased.

    Its not bad and i am not a psychologist you, but im sharing my impressions, which are: you are still sore from UO and DarkFall similarities makes you remember it.

    And as ive said before, this is a lesson: never pick GMs from the forum base.

  • Vivianne Draper

    yes I’m sure that being ganked in an online game has scarred lum deeply FOR LIFE.

    or maybe the darkfall crowd and game really is mockworthy.

  • http://[email protected] JuJutsu

    “I find the word “fair” to be quite detestable, because I’ve never encountered such a thing as fairness my whole life.”

    Wow, I’ve never met a feral child raised by wild animals before. You’ll just have to trust me on this…many normal people not raised by wolves do believe in non feral things like fairness, reciprocity and other concepts that you will find foreign. Many try to incorporate them into their lives.

  • http://www.drunkenbeggarclan.com Red Morgan

    JuJutsu :
    “I find the word “fair” to be quite detestable, because I’ve never encountered such a thing as fairness my whole life.”
    Wow, I’ve never met a feral child raised by wild animals before. You’ll just have to trust me on this…many normal people not raised by wolves do believe in non feral things like fairness, reciprocity and other concepts that you will find foreign. Many try to incorporate them into their lives.

    Really? It’s amazing that Communism hasn’t spread across the world and we’re not all frolicking around in an egalitarian paradise then.

    I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with playing “fair”, but it’s an artificial concept. There are plenty of games with artificial restrictions that force some concept of fairness on players. I don’t know why it bothers anyone that there is a game without some of those restrictions. Unless things don’t get so skewed as to eliminate competition, I’m all for it.

  • Random Poster

    You know Vetarnis wasn’t saying “fair” as in “you hit me then I hit you, and we never hit each other in the back etc.” He was using fair as in, “Hey I am going to play within the confines of the game rules, i’m not going to use a third party program to give me an advantage, or exploit a flaw in game design”

    See if you run across these people who are ALREADY doing this exploiting game flaws you will die….unless you of course do it yourself. You can say “and I look forward to killing them” but you won’t be able to.

  • dartwick

    PVP worlds are bizarre distortion of humanity. In real life if you put 1000 people living together they would quickly gang up on people randomly beat others up.(no one kills in an MMO they just beat each other.)

    But normal society doesnt evolve in MMOs because trouble makers can reroll and anyone whos unhappy just quits(which from a game perspective is the same as suicide.)

  • Raad

    Absolutely nothing wrong with this, come on these guys are all e-peen waving twats that have been at this waving game for quite some time. Full steam ahead Scott!

  • Mandella

    Gx1080 :
    Well, the GMs obviously were picked from the most posters at the forums (at least is my impression).

    Er, I think GM in this context mean “Grand Master,” as in the highest level in that school of crafting.

    You may all now return to your regular hard core forum PvP.

  • http://www.golemizer.com Over00

    If I want to feel miserable over and over, I’ll go play 10 minutes on Quake Live for free.

    If some are enjoying to pay to get the same feeling then hey! I’m fine with it! Maybe they should add IP banning when your character die. It’s not hardcore enough as it is and it would improve the “philosophy” behind the game.

    Oh, I’m out of popcorn also. Anyone can refill?

  • Akjosch

    This PVPer doesn’t care for fairness either. I care for a good, meaningful fight. But when I’m alone and look down on a force of enemies over a hundredth strong, “fairness” won’t ever come to mind. I will, as I always did, rush them and try my best to take out as many as I can before my demise. And never, ever, stop fighting. Because I love to fight, not simply to win.

  • Raad

    @Mandella
    Just like to make a point since your post reminded me of it, I find it a bit strange that someone actually said that being from UO meant your biased when others are too quick to judge those that _didn’t_ play during that era as not knowing how good it all was.

  • Raad

    @Over00
    That’s why you should have bought a whole truckload of un-popped corns ready to be made brah, I got mine all setup.

  • Random Poster

    Akjosch :
    This PVPer doesn’t care for fairness either. I care for a good, meaningful fight. But when I’m alone and look down on a force of enemies over a hundredth strong, “fairness” won’t ever come to mind. I will, as I always did, rush them and try my best to take out as many as I can before my demise. And never, ever, stop fighting. Because I love to fight, not simply to win.

    Again, that is not what he meant by fairness. “Ganking” even though it pisses people off is within the design of the game, it’s the use of exploits and outside programs that he is referring to with “unfairness”.

  • Gx1080

    I was thinking in the job of being the gankers babysitter, and hearing all the complains about gankers, aka being a GM.

  • Freakazoid

    I hate pvp because I have deep seeded psychological issues with being pushed around.

    You like pvp because you have deep seeded psychological issues with wanting to push people around.

    And thus, the great hardcore pvp debate never ends.

  • http://bdadv.blogspot.com Bonedead

    Fighting against people who will do anything to win, some of whom willing to cheat, and you say PvPers don’t want a challenge?

    Why do people play soccer so much?
    Why would you want to spend 3 hours a day practicing basketball, building the perfect magic the gathering deck, programming stupid crap that you don’t even show to anyone?

    You ask why people would want to compete against others in an online game.

    I ask why you wouldn’t.

    Oh, because it is possible to fail every time you try.

    We like this sort of play because the challenge of winning makes you feel like one bad muthafrugga, bitch!

  • Raad

    @Bonedead
    Your name should be braindead, it would suit your online persona better.

  • http://www.thisisnotacommunity.org D-0ne

    I don’t hate PvP. I enjoy it. This isn’t personal. This is about Darkfall and some of the people who are attracted to it and for whatever reason have become its face to the world.

  • http://construed.wordpress.com DM Osbon

    More tractor posts, please.

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  • http://haven.thratchen.com isildur

    Hey Syncaine, if you were wondering about the difference between your opinions and Scott’s opinions?

    People who make MMOs listen to what Scott has to say. They don’t necessarily agree with him, but they listen to him.

    Whereas I’ve never even heard of you, and it doesn’t seem like I’m missing much.

  • Raad

    @isildur
    He’s a hardcore casual uber dude who prides himself in being an astronaut, a brain surgeon and his pastimes include killing newbs, banging (uber hawt) chicks, playing American football, working out, writing deep lyrics/poems and waxing his awesome washboard abs and six pack. In other words, he brings back the average/specialised human stare as they wonder helplessly how glorious he is.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/William-Purvis/1529807928 William Purvis

    Scott, Blizzard called. They are so depressed that you are giving Darkfall so much airtime, that they shut down their login servers all afternoon in protest.

    Please give them some credit so we can play WoW again, thx!

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