Darkfall Psychoanalytics

Posted on February 27, 2009 by Scott Jennings| 203 Comments

Protip: if you are amused by the long dark nightmare that is the Darkfall community’s soul, it’s probably because you were a whiny baby in UO. (By the way, Syncaine, playing UO in the Good Old Days wasn’t exactly rocket science.)

Remember: Darkfall – STRICTLY FOR THE HARDCORE. To remind you of this, we leave you with some out of context quotes from Darkfall’s Community Manager, who, given the launch and the general nature of Darkfall’s community, is probably drinking heavily RIGHT NOW.

<@Brannoc> I’d be happy to tell you to go fuck yourselves! But a lot of people say that’s bad PR
<@Brannoc> so…I’m trying not to

Mudkipslolwu: Brannoc can i get you to comment on the nude photos that have recently surfaced including both you and tasos?
<@Brannoc> my penis is bigger, Mudkipslolwu

In other Darkfall news (Broken Toys: All Darkfall, All the time! Well, until someone else releases an MMO.), Keen of Keen & Graev has a non-schadenfreudy launch day recap.

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Hyu

Ack. The phrase “(at 37% of the world population)” should read (at ~2% of the US population).
Hawken

@Delurm

“And it’s amazing how the wii is denounced as ‘carebear’ because it’s popular.

Be antisocial if you want – just stop acting surprised when the rest of the gaming community looks at you and points it out.”

So if a game is not made to your societal standards than the “rest” of the gaming community looks and points it out?

I hate to say it but the people that post here have a never ending saga against pvp games going way back and are HARDLY the “rest” of gaming society. This isn’t something new. I just find it amazing that it takes a pvp’esque game to get the worms out of hiding.

80% of the people here post to bitch. Some people like to grief, some people like a fucking anti-social game, too fucking bad get over it already. Funny thing is DFO will probably end up selling more boxes than Warhammer online. It’s just proof that Glitchless and Play to crush marketing works even in the 2009, except at least DFO actually had a game to come out with.
Hyu

“”You forgot to add the part about your awesome body, model-hot girlfriend and your close circle of illuminati-esque Jewish friends who control the world.”"

Except I’m not playing internet-tough-guy (the first two), or pretending to be powerful (the third). I’m simply saying that I’m a pretty fucking *good* person.

All of which I only brought up in direct response to someone claiming I wasn’t, based essentially on the fact that I like different types of MMOs than they do.

Try again?
Vetarnias

@Hyu
I have the uncanny feeling that this conversation will be headed to Godwinville — in reverse — sooner or later.

Still. I’m not even American, and in fact we still have Queen Elizabeth on our money. Furthermore, the WASP theory flies right over my head, because though I’m white, I’m neither Anglo-Saxon nor Protestant. I just happen to be able to write a somewhat decent English because of the prevailing Anglo-American superiority complex — impossible to avoid, no matter how much would want to.

Yet I don’t have this strange so-kicked-down-that-we’re-superior complex that you seem to display.
Hyu

I honestly can’t make heads or tails of anything you just said. None of what I said was abstract theorycraft, merely a historical reference with a bit of explanation attached. None of it depends on what nationality/ethnicity you happen to be.

I’m not saying “Jews are superior because they’re kicked down”. I’m not even saying that Jews as a whole are ‘superior’, whatever that means. I’m saying that Jews have integrated certain valuable concepts into their culture that many dominant cultures have lagged on figuring out, and that the dichotomy between the minority who’s figured it out and the majority who still doesn’t ‘get it’ is playing out with regard to the clash of playstyles within Darkfall, between people like the TTH guy who expect certain privileges (being attacked with strength, rather than cunning) that there’s no particular reason they should have. And it’s ironic that the issue in question — cunning vs strength — is the same in both cases.
Freakazoid

@Raad

He also goes by the name Mediocre. I think he showed up sometime around slownewsday and hung around every other post-lumthemad.net forum since until he got banned from them.

@Hyu
You lost before the challenge even began.

All those things you said to make yourself look normal? You just used them as a pedestal to support your hurf blurfing habit on the internet. Also you posted six times in a fucking row defending your viewpoint on a VIDEO GAME. And are STILL doing it.
Vetarnias

@Hyu
But that is precisely the problem: that last sentence of yours. As much as you can say that it is a case of cunning vs strength in Darkfall (and since I don’t play DF I’m not exactly in a good position), that comparison with being Jewish is particularly gratuitous, and even then the application of cunning vs strength in the case of Jews is dubious at best (as, perhaps, it implies some ongoing anti-Semitism).

I have known some Jews, and I will say that their social network is very tight-knit, perhaps (and probably) as a result of those historic grievances you mention. I’d call it survival instinct. But the word “cunning”, in that context, irks me somewhat by its implication of higher intelligence, and the word “strength” even more, because it implies that gentiles still go around discriminating against you. I have no doubt that there are isolated cases of discrimination, but you can’t exactly say that it’s “we have to be smarter to survive against brutes” anymore.

I’m all too aware of certain Jews’ propensity to refer to Godwin’s subject matter on just about every subject for every perceived slight against Israel, for instance. I hope it won’t devolve into that.

My bit of biographical information was just intended as a reminder that not all of us here are WASP. Hell, as a French-Canadian, I’m perfectly aware of what it means to try to survive in a sea of English. But I don’t go around claiming I have to be more cunning to survive over greater strength. Because it’s pretty much impossible. Sometimes the numbers mean everything.

When I hear the suggestion, “play smarter”, it usually fails to acknowledge that the other side can do it as well — they just perhaps don’t have the desire to do it because it’s not necessary, but they could do it. Which means that in the end it all boils down to numbers.
Belsameth

Hyu :
Getting attached to your video game character and its items, such that you feel somehow morally pained if they’re damaged or destroyed? Now THAT’S sociopathic behavior.

Oh, it might be griefing is the games ruleset. hell, skip the “might be”. It’s a game that’s made for corpse campers, newb gankers and other forms of griefing. If you enjoy that style of play, go for it. That doesn’t change the fact that the active players (The griefers. The rest won’t last long) are a bunch of sociopaths. In game at least.
DaveN

Wow, Hyu, if I had a golden crown encrusted with precious stones I’d crown you the King of tl;dr

I mean, jeez. For a while I thought Prokofy Neva had gone all PvP and decided to start defending Darkfall.
http://crymore.de EpicSquirt

@Raad
Try again.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

I’m fine with the rampant trolling as long as it stays contained to this STRICTLY HARDCORE thread.

If it spreads, it will be contained. With fire.
http://crymore.de EpicSquirt

@Scott Jennings
That’s why you’ve called the thread “psychoanalytics”. We’re so predictable :/.
JuJutsu

@Hawken
“So if a game is not made to your societal standards than the “rest” of the gaming community looks and points it out?”

This blog is devoted to games and tractors; oddly enough there are posts about games. All sorts of games but mostly mmos and all sorts of things about games, crafting, graphics, combat mechanics, game economies, grinding…all sorts of things. When it comes to FFA PvP the scumbags that are attracted to it are a natural point of commentary. Or, to use your phraseolgy…Some people like to point out that sociopaths are attracted to FFA PvP, too fucking bad get over it already.

“I hate to say it but the people that post here have a never ending saga against pvp games going way back and are HARDLY the “rest” of gaming society.”

You’ll find that many people that post here play PvP games…DAoC, WoW, Warhammer, AoC [well maybe not AoC ]. Or in my case, I prefer Planetside, or I did when there were more than 8 people logged in. But those aren’r ‘real’ PvP are they?

“Funny thing is DFO will probably end up selling more boxes than Warhammer online.”

When that happens you can bet your ass there will be a thread here about it. You can come back and brag about how you told us so. I made my bet with Vetarnias in another thread…my wager isn’t anything like yours.
Vetarnias

Darkfall cannot sell more boxes than Warhammer Online.

Because it isn’t selling in boxes.
Phlis

Hyu :
I played soccer for 8 years, growing up. Was I terrible? Sure! I was a forward striker who scored 1 goal in those 8 years. But I loved it! It was good fun. I was generally on the poorer teams, and we didn’t win that much.
So?
It was about the fun of playing the game.

Okay, a little analogy on competition in PvP games.

Imagine for a minute, you’re a 12 year old boy who has never played soccer before in his life. You are then kidnapped by David Beckam. He forces you onto a soccer field, and builds a 30ft wall around it so you can never leave. He then plays you one on one, and completely destroyes you, every hour of every day for a week. Not satisfied with that, he enlists an entire professional soccer team who proceed to completely obliterate you, over and over. It’s so bad you never even touch the ball they are playing with. They then laugh at you and tell you how bad you are for losing. Every Day. For the rest of your life. 6 months down the road, You maybe kick the ball once after gaining a tiny bit of skill you’ve earned from being beaten so many times. Then they break your legs with a baseball bat and they all take steroids to make themselves that much better then you. You can never get better. You can never and will never win. What “normal” person wants to play this game?

Have fun in your competative PvP MMO.
Hyu

“”Some people like to point out that sociopaths are attracted to FFA PvP, too fucking bad get over it already.”"

Except, that’s simply not so. As explained above, the general mentality for playing DIKU-PvE is far more sociopathic than the mentality of playing Darkfall.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

As explained above, the general mentality for playing DIKU-PvE is far more sociopathic than the mentality of playing Darkfall.

Do you at least giggle a little when typing such obvious trolls?
Hyu

@Phlis

Uh, who kidnapped you and forced you to play Darkfall?

Also, a good PvP ruleset allows you to accumulate some permanent gains no matter how much you lose; i.e., item loss but no XP loss. Darktide worked that way, Darkfall works that way, and both allow even poorer players to advance themselves and narrow the gap between themselves and the skilled over time. There’s a reason nobody is proposing that other players can ‘loot’ your XP when you die.

Also, in these games, world size is important. A tiny world with nowhere to hide is awful for World PvP; you want to have a world where you can strike out into the wilderness and not come into contact with much of anybody for a while if you want.

(Darktide nailed this perfectly, too. And it’d been out for… how many years when DAoC Mordred came out? For all his ranting in the LtM days about clueless devs, Scott and friends at Mythic weren’t terribly adept at learning the lessons of past PvP rulesets.)

Now, again — remind me who’s kidnapping you and forcing you to play Darkfall?
Hawken

@Jujutsu

“When it comes to FFA PvP the scumbags that are attracted to it are a natural point of commentary.”

C’mon Scott now people who like FFA PvP are scumbags? Trolling is fine I guess, but this guy is obviously bereft of any chance to have a normal conversation on the topic.
Hyu

Scott Jennings :

Hyu :
As explained above, the general mentality for playing DIKU-PvE is far more sociopathic than the mentality of playing Darkfall.

Do you at least giggle a little when typing such obvious trolls?

I would, except, well, I REALLY DO BELIEVE THIS.

I really do think that WoW encourages sociopathic tendencies, and I think it’s a blight on our society. I look at WoW players like I look at my burned-out I-banking friends; people who are *doing it wrong*. At life.

It’s a Skinner Box with a nice coat of paint on it. Plain and simple. It caters to and nurtures people’s baser, unfortunate instincts.

I really do think the Bartle ‘Achiever’ metric is a decent measure of one form of sociopathy.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

(Darktide nailed this perfectly, too. And it’d been out for… how many years when DAoC Mordred came out? For all his ranting in the LtM days about clueless devs, Scott and friends at Mythic weren’t terribly adept at learning the lessons of past PvP rulesets.)

Amazingly, not everyone agrees with you that Darktide was the penultimate nirvana of PvP MMO gaming.
Hyu

Oh, and substitute ‘Diablo’ for ‘WoW’ in the above sentence and it’s still doubleplus-true.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hawken :

C’mon Scott now people who like FFA PvP are scumbags? Trolling is fine I guess, but this guy is obviously bereft of any chance to have a normal conversation on the topic.

Well, Hyu is constantly going on about how people who like PvE are sociopaths, so it seems a balanced counterpoint!
Hyu

“”Amazingly, not everyone agrees with you that Darktide was the penultimate nirvana of PvP MMO gaming.”"

Apples to oranges; I was referring to FFA PvP specifically, not PvP more generally, which is why I didn’t mention WAR (which never attempted FFA PvP).

Mordred directly attempted the same sort of ruleset that Darktide offered. Darktide was superior in every respect.

This is an opinion shared by the vast majority of people who play FFA PvP.

It’s one thing to argue that many people don’t like FFA PvP, and so WAR was designed without it; fair enough.

But Mordred was put in specifically to provide an FFA PvP environment, and it didn’t incorporate any of the lessons of a superior, earlier product. That’s fail.

DAoC was a far more successful game than Asheron’s Call, for any number of reasons. But AC Darktide has nonetheless been far more resilient than Mordred, despite being tethered to a far less popular game.

That’s telling.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

It’s a Skinner Box with a nice coat of paint on it. Plain and simple. It caters to and nurtures people’s baser, unfortunate instincts.

I really do think the Bartle ‘Achiever’ metric is a decent measure of one form of sociopathy.

While that’s arguable (although Jonathan Blow makes that point far more eloquently than you have, and with much less trollish animosity) moving from that to how the Lord-of-the-Flies environment of no-rules PvP MMOs are somehow healthier is a leap of logic that you have yet to describe as you gracefully fly though it.
Hyu

Scott Jennings :

Hawken :
C’mon Scott now people who like FFA PvP are scumbags? Trolling is fine I guess, but this guy is obviously bereft of any chance to have a normal conversation on the topic.

Well, Hyu is constantly going on about how people who like PvE are sociopaths, so it seems a balanced counterpoint!

Uh, where on earth did I say that? I said *DIKU-PvE*, specifically. And the playing-for-the-next-ding-not-playing-for-the-joy-of-playing-itself mentality that DIKUs encourage.

We’re not talking about PvE in Puzzle Pirates, here.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

Mordred directly attempted the same sort of ruleset that Darktide offered. Darktide was superior in every respect.

For YOU. For others, being curbstomped by bored exploiting higher level players seconds after character creation did not hold a great deal of attention. I can name quite a few other areas where Darktide falls short of creating a fun gaming experience for the majority of players, but this discussion isn’t about Darktide. Or the supremacy of Jewish intellectualism. Or whatever else you yank it over to.

Hyu :
This is an opinion shared by the vast majority of people who play FFA PvP.

Then why isn’t it played by the vast majority of people who play FFA PvP?
Hyu

Scott Jennings :

Hyu :
It’s a Skinner Box with a nice coat of paint on it. Plain and simple. It caters to and nurtures people’s baser, unfortunate instincts.
I really do think the Bartle ‘Achiever’ metric is a decent measure of one form of sociopathy.

While that’s arguable (although Jonathan Blow makes that point far more eloquently than you have, and with much less trollish animosity) moving from that to how the Lord-of-the-Flies environment of no-rules PvP MMOs are somehow healthier is a leap of logic that you have yet to describe as you gracefully fly though it.

It’s healthy in that while it’s perfectly natural to fantasize about a Lord-of-the-Flies, Mad Max, The-whole-world’s-gone-to-hell style scenario and how interesting it might be to experience, it’d be a total catastrophe if you actually got to experience it in the real world.

And so, a virtual world to explore this scenario is a perfect supplement to the natural restraints of real life.

DIKU-PvE, by contrast, offers nothing that real life doesn’t — the ‘jolt’ of advancement can be attained in far more meaningful, superior ways in real life, without any catastrophic consequences (indeed, the benefits of participating more fully in real life are quite substantial, both for yourself and others). All it offers is an ‘escape’ from real life into an alternate, inferior facsimile, where you’re feeding the same needs — status, advancement — but not in a way that really benefits you or anyone else in the real world.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

Uh, where on earth did I say that? I said *DIKU-PvE*, specifically. And the playing-for-the-next-ding-not-playing-for-the-joy-of-playing-itself mentality that DIKUs encourage.

We’re not talking about PvE in Puzzle Pirates, here.

No, you’re talking about a game that has locked up so much of the MMO market that the user base of all other games almost show up as rounding errors. Trying to say you’re not dismissing the MMO audience in general as sociopathic is specious.
Hyu

“”For YOU. For others, being curbstomped by bored exploiting higher level players seconds after character creation did not hold a great deal of attention.”"

Uh, in what way was Mordred any different than this? I’m not comparing the appeal of Darktide FFA PvP to Sport PvP, I’m comparing Darktide to Mordred. And the server numbers speak for themselves.

“”Then why isn’t it played by the vast majority of people who play FFA PvP?”"

Well, for a while… they did. Then, around late 2001, Turbine began to completely destroy the ruleset they’d created with changes that were targeted at the PvE servers and had unintended consequences for Darktide. Darktide hasn’t been operating under anything close to its ‘best face forward’ ruleset for 7+ years now.
Hyu

“”No, you’re talking about a game that has locked up so much of the MMO market that the user base of all other games almost show up as rounding errors. Trying to say you’re not dismissing the MMO audience in general as sociopathic is specious.”"

Well, I *am* describing the majority of the MMO market as sociopathic to some degree. I admit that. And I’ll toss in fans of Diablo, as well, even if it’s not technically an MMO.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

It’s healthy in that while it’s perfectly natural to fantasize about a Lord-of-the-Flies, Mad Max, The-whole-world’s-gone-to-hell style scenario and how interesting it might be to experience, it’d be a total catastrophe if you actually got to experience it in the real world.

Yes, and that’s fine. However, when I play GTA4 and hijack a new sports car, I do not wreck 4 hours of work that someone else put into the game earning that sports car. This is something you gloss over neatly in your praise of free-form PvP neo-Darwinism.

Hyu :
DIKU-PvE, by contrast, offers nothing that real life doesn’t — the ‘jolt’ of advancement can be attained in far more meaningful, superior ways in real life, without any catastrophic consequences (indeed, the benefits of participating more fully in real life are quite substantial, both for yourself and others).

You could dismiss literally any entertainment in this fashion. “Watching a movie doesn’t benefit my life in any real way.” The argument’s irrelevant. Entertainment by its very nature is escapism. Are you arguing that advancement in a free-PvP game is somehow more meaningful than in a PvE game?
Hyu

To add onto the above, I’m saying there’s nothing inherent about the idea of ‘PvE’ that’s sociopathic, just the dominant implementation of it. My critique of the DIKU-PvE psychology has nothing to do with the fact that some players would prefer to cooperate with one another and compete against the environment, rather than compete against one another. There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with that.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

“”For YOU. For others, being curbstomped by bored exploiting higher level players seconds after character creation did not hold a great deal of attention.””

Uh, in what way was Mordred any different than this? I’m not comparing the appeal of Darktide FFA PvP to Sport PvP, I’m comparing Darktide to Mordred. And the server numbers speak for themselves.

I realize from your past postings that you don’t make a habit of actually being familiar with MMOs you critique, so I’ll note that unlike Darktide, Mordred/Andred did not permit new players to be PK’d unless they opted out of new user protection.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

Well, for a while… they did. Then, around late 2001, Turbine began to completely destroy the ruleset they’d created with changes that were targeted at the PvE servers and had unintended consequences for Darktide. Darktide hasn’t been operating under anything close to its ‘best face forward’ ruleset for 7+ years now.

I’m sure Trammel was also involved.
Hyu

“”You could dismiss literally any entertainment in this fashion. “Watching a movie doesn’t benefit my life in any real way.” The argument’s irrelevant. Entertainment by its very nature is escapism. Are you arguing that advancement in a free-PvP game is somehow more meaningful than in a PvE game?”"

I’m arguing that in a free-PvP game, you’re not playing in order to advance, per se. You’re playing to *play*, because the actual playing is *fun*. The advancement is incidental to why you’re playing the game.

And this is precisely my point; there are good and bad kinds of escapism. I’m arguing that FFA PvP provides a ‘good’ kind of escapism, as per the logic outlined above, and DIKU-PvE is a ‘bad’ kind of escapism.

“”Yes, and that’s fine. However, when I play GTA4 and hijack a new sports car, I do not wreck 4 hours of work that someone else put into the game earning that sports car. This is something you gloss over neatly in your praise of free-form PvP neo-Darwinism.”"

The idea that you’d put in ‘work’ to ‘earn’ things in a world that doesn’t actually exist is precisely what I’m describing as sociopathic. If you’re playing for the right reasons, the 4 hours to get that sports car wasn’t ‘work’, it was time spent playing a game you found fun, and the sports car was rather incidental; even if someone takes the sports car, they’re not taking the 4 hours of fun you had that happened to result in you getting it.

Saying someone should ‘work’ to ‘earn’ things in a video game is silly, the more you think about it. (XBox-Live achievement collectors display a similar maladaptive behavior, for what it’s worth)
Hyu

“”I realize from your past postings that you don’t make a habit of actually being familiar with MMOs you critique, so I’ll note that unlike Darktide, Mordred/Andred did not permit new players to be PK’d unless they opted out of new user protection.”"

Believe it or not, I actually played DAoC, Mordred included. Was even active on the closed tester forums for a year or so post-release, as best I can recall. I just don’t happen to remember that rule.

But if this was truly such a giant change (And Darktide had something similar; new players lose almost nothing, whether loot or death penalty, on death), why was Mordred a comparative failure when compared with Darktide?

And how does that invalidate anything else I said about all the major ways Mordred failed to learn Darktide’s lessons, as opposed to the sort of minor issues that only matter for the first few levels?

Again, assuming you all ‘got it right’ with Mordred’s ruleset — why did Mordred, attached to a much more popular game, end up less successful than Darktide, attached to a much less popular game?
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

And yet you neatly skip over how “working” to earn that sports car (the concept of trading time investment for advancement being part of literally almost every CRPG invented, btw) is somehow more sociopathic then beating another human being over the head and stealing it from him.
Hyu

“”I’m sure Trammel was also involved.”"

AC released with all but one of its servers being PvE, and EQ was already another option for PvE-ers at that point. Nobody can claim they ended up on Darktide for lack of other options. Hell, the login screen clearly said in all caps, “PLEASE PICK ANOTHER SERVER IF YOU ARE NOT PREPARED FOR A HARSH EXISTENCE.”

The whole ‘pre-Trammel UO’ thing isn’t at issue here. I’ve never advocated forcing anyone into PvP they don’t want.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

Believe it or not, I actually played DAoC, Mordred included. Was even active on the closed tester forums for a year or so post-release, as best I can recall. I just don’t happen to remember that rule.

Oh, I remember your time there well, and how every post you made was about how DAOC would be so much better if it were identical to AC Darktide, and how you were finally kicked off when you let slip that not only had you never gotten a character past some ridiculously low level but that you no longer even had an active account. Unbelievably, this was not considered helpful feedback.
http://crymore.de EpicSquirt

@Hyu: There is something wrong with that: it’s boring. From what I know, the only people really enjoying it are people who freak at at the slightest occurence of PvP.

I don’t mind sitting on voice comms with friends and having a chat while killing some random mobs, maybe even singing and drinking together (been there, done that), but the damn PvE is still boring. It just serves the purpose of getting loot and levels, wow…

@Scott Jennings: Entertainment is escapism, I agree! I despise boring entertainment.

I never got a thrill in a PvE game.

I don’t know about Darkfall yet, alone the rumors about invisible, not fighting back, high level mobs being farmable by beta guilds, so they can claim some cities, makes it a candidate for the trash can, but the “sociopath”-style discussion is so pointless.
Hyu

“”And yet you neatly skip over how “working” to earn that sports car (the concept of trading time investment for advancement being part of literally almost every CRPG invented, btw) is somehow more sociopathic then beating another human being over the head and stealing it from him.”"

You’re not beating him in RL? You’re beating him in a video-game? If anything, it’s the opposite of sociopathic to know that beating someone up in real life and stealing their car is poor behavior, and so to try out experiencing a similar sensation in a video-game.

If you want to experience advancement, there’s no reason not to go ‘advance’ in real life, preferably in a way that benefits others more than it benefits yourself.

Also, most CRPGs (assuming you mean Console RPGs) attract some seriously flawed people. I have major issues with the Final Fantasy series and the people who ‘grind’ them, too. (Also, the god-awful storytelling. Quality-wise, it’s the videogame equivalent of a Dan Brown novel. But that’s a separate issue.)
Hyu

“”There is something wrong with that: it’s boring. From what I know, the only people really enjoying it are people who freak at at the slightest occurence of PvP.
I don’t mind sitting on voice comms with friends and having a chat while killing some random mobs, maybe even singing and drinking together (been there, done that), but the damn PvE is still boring. It just serves the purpose of getting loot and levels, wow…
“”

EpicSquirt: We’re getting our definitions crossed. What you’re describing sounds to me like DIKU-PvE, which is what I’m railing against. But there’s no reason that the concept of ‘a player or players vs a computer’ has to work in the way you describe. I gave Puzzle Pirates as an example of a game where the PvE works very differently, for instance, to give a sense of what’s possible.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

You’re not beating him in RL? You’re beating him in a video-game?

The time investment said victim put in is real, which is why full-loot PvP games are somewhat more *HARDCORE* *EXTREME* than a kill in TF2.

Why do you have “major issues” with the entertainment of others (‘oh my god, someone is enjoying a JRPG! They’re WRONG!’), yet object so strenuously when others express issues with the entertainment you enjoy? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Triforcer

I wondered how this got to 192 posts. Then I saw the name Hyu. Then I cried a little and turned on all the lights in my room so that he can’t get me.
Hyu

“”Oh, I remember your time there well, and how every post you made was about how DAOC would be so much better if it were identical to AC Darktide, and how you were finally kicked off when you let slip that not only had you never gotten a character past some ridiculously low level but that you no longer even had an active account. Unbelievably, this was not considered helpful feedback.”"

Okay, I’ll at least admit that making THOSE posts *definitely* put a silly grin on my face.

(Because, well, yes, DAoC would have been significantly better if it’d copied Asheron’s Call’s superior mechanics. And rarely do the devs offer such a golden opportunity to repeatedly rub their noses in their design faults like that. I mean, if I were you guys, *I* sure as hell wouldn’t have put up with a year of that from me. But it was quite satisfying, in that way that only telling people they’re wrong on the internet can be.)

The highest level I hit in DAoC was 30, I think. Getting past that required me to kill mobs repeatedly in the hopes of eventually finding something fun to do at a higher level. Quit CoH at the same level, for the same reason (though alts were more fun in CoH).

It’s not like DAoC PvE was ‘hard’. The fact that I only made it to level 30 before quitting was more a condemnation of your game design than anything else.
Hyu

Scott Jennings :

Hyu :
You’re not beating him in RL? You’re beating him in a video-game?

The time investment said victim put in is real, which is why full-loot PvP games are somewhat more *HARDCORE* *EXTREME* than a kill in TF2.
Why do you have “major issues” with the entertainment of others (’oh my god, someone is enjoying a JRPG! They’re WRONG!’), yet object so strenuously when others express issues with the entertainment you enjoy? Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I’m not objecting to the fact that they’re challenging my choice of entertainment; I’m simply pointing out that their objections are logically flawed. I can back up my arguments for the problems in the entertainment of others with sound logic.

Also, I don’t think full-loot PvP games are ‘hardcore’ or ‘extreme’ at all. They only feel that way if you have an unreasonable/vaguely pathological attachment to the items your character’s accumulated. I wouldn’t argue that AC Darktide or Darkfall are ‘hardcore’ or ‘extreme’ games, except if you mean ‘extreme’ in the very technical sense of being an outlier among the current crop of MMOs.

The guy I car-jacked in the game wasn’t “investing” time at all. He was simply playing the game, same as me.

If he saw it as an investment, well, that’s pathological, and I’m only so responsible for how pathological people approach a perfectly healthy game.

Saying it’s my fault if he’s bent out of shape about the car-jacking is like saying it’s my fault if someone cries after I beat them at chess. (I’m awful at chess, but hey, it’s an analogy.) He’s the one ‘doing it wrong’.
http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

Hyu :

And rarely do the devs offer such a golden opportunity to repeatedly rub their noses in their design faults like that. I mean, if I were you guys, *I* sure as hell wouldn’t have put up with a year of that from me. But it was quite satisfying, in that way that only telling people they’re wrong on the internet can be.

I know! I’m about at my limit after one day.
Hyu

“”I know! I’m about at my limit after one day.”"

Well, at least this serves as a monument to anyone wondering why I get banned from most DIKU-friendly forums eventually. (The straw that broke the camel’s back over at F13 was making the argument that Diablo epitomizes everything wrong with a certain type of game, and points to something wrong with the people who play them.)
Todd Ogrin

It is a tremendous analogical failure to say people need to think of FFA PVP MMOs more like chess. Yikes.

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