Punching Babies: Why Darkfall Can, Should, And Must Succeed

Punching babies is one of my favorite turns of phrase. It is probably most popular from Penny Arcade, but Old Man Murray had the ultimate explanation of sucker punching a baby in the gut to get it to be quiet… it’s easy and it works, but you don’t want to advertise the habit. Which defines a lot of my posting habits about, well, events like Darkfall’s launch. It’s easy, it works, it’s kind of fun, but it’s not something you particularly want to *brag* about.

In the midst of the multi-post baby punching threadnaught that has consumed this site out of, well, a lack of anything else going on, a comment I made that upon reflection I think deserves more attention and fleshing out:

Yeah, I think [Darkfall] will spike at around 100,000 and then settle down to around half that. I even made a blog post to that effect! I could be wrong… and if they can sustain growth at 50k and then get 100k and sustain it, well then they get some financial reward for staying up till 3AM on launch week.

And I’m all about niche games succeeding. I really do hope these guys succeed, even if I personally recoil at the community and think the design has serious issues. Niche games can, will, and do work in the market.

So, why do I believe that, despite the obvious glee I have at punching this particular baby over and over? A few reasons.

It can succeed… because the market is there. The “no rules! extreme carnage! total domination of the weak!” PvP str1cktly-hardc0r3 may not be particularly a market *I* want to service, but it does exist and is quite capable of funding a realistically budgeted MMO.

It should succeed… because most previous attempts to service this market have failed. The most prominent of these, Shadowbane, clearly had a market, one lovingly sustained over years during the game’s development (much like Darkfall later), and which abandoned the game due to technical, not design issues. This same market was a significant subset of Ultima Online’s early adopters (albeit one that limited the early growth of the service, which is why they were eventually tossed over the side). And one game, Eve, has in fact prospered by serving this market, albeit with a radically different product and a different genre. This is what people who have more money than I do call “market opportunity”.

It must succeed… because the big-budget MMO business model is killing our industry. World of Warcraft’s success has been wonderful for exactly two companies: Activision Blizzard and Electronic Arts.

The reason for Actiblizzard’s good fortune is obvious – WoW is such a huge part of the PC gaming market, that it effectively IS the PC gaming market now. To the extent that World of Warcraft’s revenue is sustaining Actiblizzard through the recessionary spiral that is consuming many of its competitors.

Electronic Arts’ good fortune is less clear, and more dangerous. To be specific, WoW has effectively raised the barrier of entry to the classic kill-things-loot-pants-grunt-twice MMO market, to the point that only megacorporations like EA can afford to compete with WoW on its own terms. Smaller companies simply will not be able to raise the tens-of-millions budget required, and more importantly not have access to the huge reservoir of art teams, content pipelines and engine technology readily available to large corporations like EA. This is something I ran into even at NCsoft, which is not by any measure a small company. We are coming to the point where there are literally only two companies that can make successful MMOs – if we define successful as “competing with WoW”.

So, how do you kill a giant? By being agile and hitting the giant where it’s not looking – underserved market segments that may be willing to overlook that your game doesn’t have the breadth of content and years of production polish that a game such as WoW has, because it delivers on innovative – or even different – design.  And for all the myriad problems Darkfall has had in its launch, for all the head-scratching technical design decisions made, and for the completely justifiable lampooning of its hilariously overwrought community – it still is a great example of this concept made manifest. Darkfall isn’t a game for me, or for many readers of this blog – but it is for a given market segment, and that market segment, if it embraces that, will make the game a financial success – and be another case for being able to succeed in a post-WoW apocaplypse.

And if that given market segment does NOT embrace that, due to technical failures or simple boredom or the worst possible case of all, “You know, I could be playing WoW right now <cancel>”, that is also another case. A case that only $100m+ budgets can create a successful MMO. A case that only two companies are in a position to make MMOs.

And for those two reasons alone, if I were able to, I’d buy Darkfall. I wouldn’t PLAY it mind you. I’d put the box on my shelf alongside the other MMOs I don’t play. But risks deserve rewards.

Probably not the ringing endorsement Aventurine was looking for, but they shouldn’t be looking for one from me in any event. They have their own market segment to serve and they had better get busy serving it. For the good of us all.

 

  • http://www.Mordiceius.com Mordiceius

    I hope it succeeds just so “LEET HARDCORE OMG PVPERS” can stop bitching about not having anything to do because games are to carebear. I just want some peace and quiet.

  • http://lost-war.org Mist

    Darkfall needs to get over the ‘horrible UI’ and ‘benny hill-style combat system’ design hurdles before it can even hope to get over and of the other dozens of hurdles waiting in it’s path.

  • http://unmoderated.info Sudo Nim

    You make an oft-heard point but we seem to have reached the point where developers rely on this and other “soft spots” in gamer psyches to release unfinished poorly-thought out crap. It’s getting worse, not better.

  • http://www.playnoevil.com/ Steven Davis

    What about all of the “other” successful MMOs – Maple Story, Atlantica Online (which I’m playing intermittently), …you certainly do not need $100M budget to do this and be successful?

    I have no view about Darkfall one way or the other, but it will neither make nor break the potential for a successful MMO with a reasonable budget.

  • JuJutsu

    Hmm. I could [when they open up for new business] subscribe to Darkfall and support TWO companies…

    “Amazing Tools that give you a unfair advantage over other players. Increased speed, instant teleporting and much more. Check out our Darkfall section for more information.”

    I could be a sheep-in-wolves-clothing in the “no rules! extreme carnage! total domination of the weak! PvP str1cktly-hardc0r3″ market segment AND provide support for the Hacks&Cheats segment of software development. If I could find a gold-seller for Darkfall it could be a trifecta of economic stimulus.

    Anyone know if the name Dead_Baby_Souffle is taken?

  • morphene

    It must succeed… because the big-budget MMO business model is killing our industry.

    agreed.

    years of production polish that a game such as WoW has

    I agree with this, but it doesn’t mean a secondary community like the pvp-centric needs to accept horrible project management (5? years since the restart and major siege mechanics went in 2 days before launch), and poor QA. These things don’t cost millions of dollars. In fact, good project management will probably save your studio money, as you might not tack on another 2 year restart. Good programming and art may be harder, but at least art is something i can get behind forgiving. As for programming, I have one thought for you wanna-be indie studios out there: license, license, license (though probably not unreal 3)

  • Sam

    It’s too damn buggy, laggy, choppy to support the kind of combat they’re pushing. How can you play Oblivion in a laggy ass environment where if you miss a swing you’ll probably wind up going crimnal for hitting the guy next to you, and then getting ganked by everyone else around?

    At least UO had a targeting system.

    I’m going to wait amonth and try again (I played Beta). Hopefully the launch retardedness will die down and I’ll be able to get a serious play at it, without a million bugs and constantly down servers.

    I’d love for Darkfall to succeed, but personally, I think Oblivion Online is a horibble idea. Also- LET ME TALK TO PEOPLE WHILE IM HOLDING A WEAPON!

  • morphene

    a good article would be “what made CCP succeed? (where others fail)”. I honestly don’t know the answer but they clearly nailed something that is getting missed by many other devs.

  • Ben

    Well said, Scott.

  • Iconic

    The thing about cheaply made games is that they can be made cheaply.

    So, they actually don’t need to all succeed to show their viability. In fact, most of them can fail, as long as a few of them succeed well enough to justify the risk.

    I’m not concerned about the ability of the indie films to compete with the blockbusters so much as I am concerned about the perceived cost of making a blockbuster. Hollywood will invest a hundred million in a movie if it seems like it could be a blockbuster, because it will just keep making money on video, in television syndication, on merchandising, and so on and on. There are only a few studios that can make true blockbusters, but there’s no lack of blockbusters each year.

    The real issue is when companies feel like they can’t even succeed at 100 million. If they really believe the line about needing half a billion dollars or more to succeed, then the risk is too high.

  • http://lost-war.org Mist

    morphene :
    a good article would be “what made CCP succeed? (where others fail)”. I honestly don’t know the answer but they clearly nailed something that is getting missed by many other devs.

    Space? Mostly bug free game, with the exception of some intricacies of very high end political/territorial gameplay. Complex but extremely powerful interface. Lots of solo PvE content.

  • http://www.netharuka.com jinstevens

    Interesting Scott. Will companies just cede the sword & elf market to Blizzard and EA and go for different genres? Star Wars: TOR (EA / Bioware), Champions Online (Cryptic), DC Universe Online (Sony), Star Trek Online (Cryptic) are all MMOs that should release in the next couple of years.

    What interesting is that beside EVE (and maybe Star Wars: Galaxies at its hey day), I’m not sure if any non-high fantasy MMO has even managed to become a blip in WoW’s radar screen (I’m defining blip as being over 500k subscribers).

  • Vetarnias

    At least we know, based on Darkfall and Shadowbane, that this subset of MMO players to whom you refer is extremely well organized. They follow game development news and pay attention to what is on the horizon. Reaching them has never been the problem, because they more or less move as a block (especially on a guild or alliance basis).

    Even if you could afford WoW-type ads with 80′s TV icons and former heavy metal stars on the verge of becoming hopelessly bourgeois after squandering what little remained of their credibility on a reality show, you wouldn’t need them. Aventurine didn’t advertise its upcoming release — not even on its own website — yet the sole server is reportedly overflowing.

    Nor do you need to coax those players away from World of Warcraft. It’s a safe bet that they hate that game and all it represents. That’s why I still can’t explain the great mystery that is Warhammer Online. Supposedly PvP (and RvR) is all that matters, yet they also tried to make it like WoW (or at least, it’s a complaint I remember hearing during the little time I played WAR). Aventurine made another smart decision here in going for the grittier look of Shadowbane (I loved the world design of SB) instead of trying some semi-cartoony compromise as WAR did (I played a Dwarf, and it was painfully obvious).

    So the problem with Darkfall is not so much to rally the “community”, but rather, to keep it. Not only from self-destructing — I like to compare it to a gangster convention in 1920′s Chicago (“it has been unanimously approved that we do not like the FBI; now can we go back to killing each other?”) — but from deserting it for the next shiny new game on the horizon.

    That’s where I tend to disagree with the above. Can a good FFA PvP game survive? That would depend on whether the map can remain dynamic. It seems to be doing OK for EVE (despite my own misgivings), but it didn’t for Shadowbane, for all sorts of reasons already amply discussed on this blog. However, the technical issues — SB.exe, duping, exploits — always sounded to me as an excuse by the “hardcore” for abandoning the game. Sure, they’re annoying, but I’m sure there’s more to it than that.

    There remained a small core of players on SB after its heyday, but what really killed many of the servers was the Chinese steamroller. Is it to be included in the technical issues? I’m not sure. Yet it’s the most likely scenario to occur in a well-done FFA PvP game. One large alliance versus a slightly less large alliance (the point where EVE is at). Then one falls and the other steps in. Map is dead. Reset?

    Shadowbane tried resets a year ago, but that was an exceptional measure and I didn’t follow the game after that. Ironically, the biggest concern at the time was whether all that prevented a complete Chinese takeover on the one remaining original server was the massive duping that had been done years before. Get rid of the duping, you get a Chinese takeover. Some dilemma.

    Then you have games with automatic map resets at certain points (Pirates of the Burning Sea). Yet we also had that discussion recently, and I wasn’t too sure it really changed anything if the same side always won round after round — especially if you have to make rewards for winning meaningless to avoid giving the victorious side an advantage in the next round.

    So even if Aventurine had tens of millions of dollars and a collection of economists, political scientists and sociologists to help design it, if it can’t find a way to give the guys and small guilds starting out a chance while maintaining a permanent world not marred by map or server resets, it’s pretty much dead before it’s even started.

  • morphene

    Mist :
    Mostly bug free game. Complex but extremely powerful interface. Lots of solo PvE content.

    I guess what I meant was what allowed them to accomplish their goals as an indie and produce said. I can decide to produce a fun, bug free, solo friendly game but it ain’t going to happen. Even large studios often fail after throwing in gobs of money. How did CCP buck the trend? Because whatever genre, we clearly need more CCP’s and less NP Cube’s et al.

  • JuJutsu

    “A case that only $100m+ budgets can create a successful MMO. A case that only two companies are in a position to make MMOs.”

    I hesitate to use the dreaded “S” word but what about Sony?

  • http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

    SOE is interesting in that they are a company with deep pockets but going after the margins like the indies (Freerealms, The Agency, their CCG initiatives).

  • Vetarnias

    @Scott Jennings
    I don’t know about SOE. They appear to have left a bitter taste in the mouths of many gamers, who go as far as swearing they won’t pick another SOE product again. Not to mention the Station Pass “graveyard”.

    Is it really “going after the margins” or “scraping the bottom of the barrel”?

  • http://haven.thratchen.com isildur

    Vetarnias :
    Then you have games with automatic map resets at certain points (Pirates of the Burning Sea). Yet we also had that discussion recently, and I wasn’t too sure it really changed anything if the same side always won round after round — especially if you have to make rewards for winning meaningless to avoid giving the victorious side an advantage in the next round.

    For what it’s worth, I both like and detest our map resets. I like them because they are a simple solution to a complex problem — that one side can ‘win’ and drive all other sides out of the game. I detest them because it makes many other design decisions much harder; it’s hard to drive people to conquer ports they don’t feel like they really own, and it’s nearly impossible to get people involved in the economy of a conquered port.

    I think EVE’s solution is both simple and impractical for most games: their map is fucking huge. Conquering the whole world is implausible even for an extremely large and well-organized alliance. Unfortunately, many of the elements of their setting support a huge world, and many elements of more traditional settings do not.

    Given a massive budget and the ability to go back in time a few years, I’d probably move Pirates more towards ‘massive world, unconquerable PvE areas’. But ultimately, space simply lends itself well to gigantic worlds that can be created procedurally on a short timeline, and other settings don’t.

    I have yet to see any other solution to the core problem we’re ‘solving’ with resets, although I believe there are other solutions.

  • TariqOne

    I think this is all part of a shift in the conventional thinking about MMOs. I bet the thinking just hasn’t quite made its way to the market yet, because of development cycles.

    I think after the AoCs and Tabula Rasas, the industry (and those of us who watch it) is starting to get that online games probably need to be more nimble. W:AR’s 400K subscriber base is seen as failure when in reality it’s a pretty damned good number — but only if you leave out its development/maintenance costs.

    Smaller scale, cheaper to make, cheaper to play, easier on the user’s time — I think online worlds need to adapt to a world where players have more choices. I think players are going to be increasingly nomadic and sample what the marketplace offers. Great single-player titles keep coming out. Co-op is catching on. There are more MMOs across a wealth of genres and design philosophies. I dunno, expecting players to keep plunking away at the same set of raids for months on end just seems short-sighted in a world with real and varied choices.

    It’s funny you mention Sony just above. Leaving aside any debate about the quality of their current offerings, they and maybe NCSoft seem best positioned to adapt to a kind of cafeteria model emphasizing the value of choice. Offering a range of smaller and cheaper titles (the Agency; Freerealms) and pricing plans (Station Pass or whatever it is; microtransactions) is probably the best way to keep users in your seats, and weather the new reality that a lot of those users will be cycling in and out of your games to sample new titles.

    So I’m optimistic. I think we’re just in the interstices here. I’m confident we’re close to entering a healthy new era of robust gaming choices where interesting little experiments have a fighting chance.

    But oh yeah — Darkfall. Yeah, Darkfall just strikes me as an outlier. I think it’s just poorly made, poorly run and poorly marketed to a group of poor sports. I’d be hesitant to read those tea leaves for any greater wisdom about the state of things.

  • Vetarnias

    @isildur
    Yes, I understand why the idea of map resets was brought in, and the other problems it creates. (And to be honest, I would have loved to see one of those gigantic maps you mention, where you can just see a sail over the horizon and wonder whether that ship is hostile.)

    Recently I was wondering what would happen if, instead of a static reset to status quo ante bellum, you started juggling ports so that 1) ports you captured had a chance of remaining yours (including those you lost after capturing during the round) and 2) ports you prevented the enemy from taking were guaranteed to remain on your side — the only rule being that each side start the next round with the same number of ports (and possibly at least one deep water harbour on each side). Like a card game, if you want.

    I know it’s probably just so much theorycraft, and not really applicable to PotBS because of zone levels and certain specific quests. Still, it would add an element of uncertainty if the map is competitive with two factions in a tight race to win the round. It would also encourage sides to plan ahead, should they lose access to ironwood for the duration of the next round.

    I am also wondering whether port governance will make the RvR more interesting for those who like that aspect of the game, though I’m expecting that to lead to a lot of friction within each nation.

  • http://syncaine.wordpress.com Syncaine

    Who is this Scott guy? Bring back Lum and his rantings!

    EVE is a funny example to use though, because the only reason the game is still operating is because CCP are a bunch of stubborn bastards. They had a HORRIBLE launch, and had a beyond buggy game for quite some time. It’s only in the last 2-3 years that EVE has become something people know about, much less play. It’s funny that we expect DF to launch perfect, and then point to EVE and say ‘do that’. ‘Do that’ would mean launching a terrible game, supporting it for the 10-15k playing it for a year or two, and only after that finally see respectable (100k+) sub numbers.

    But overall I think both of us have been argueing around the same point, just from different sides. DF won’t challenge WoW (or even WAR) in terms of numbers, but the market needs it to succeed if only to support future indie studios. Plus for the 11 million playing WoW, if DF does well, you know Blizzard is going to swoop in and take whatever usable ideas they find and incorporate them into the 3rd or 4th expansion.

  • Raad

    @Syncaine
    The whole argument of X launched in Y condition X years ago is getting old, if you want to compete _now_ you need to be in the same state as other games. And this goes especially for DF. Oh and people here(including me) bash it because ub3r 1337 w4nn4b3 tards like yourself tend to be the people defending/playing it.

    On a side not, awesome edit system Scott!

  • http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/ Wolfshead

    I too hope Darkfall succeeds. I think it will be a magnet that it provides a haven for all of the low life, anti-social, Bartle “killer archetypes that seem to infest various PVE MMOs. In real life we have the prison system for these people; in virtual worlds we’ll have Darkfall.

    What would be even better is if they could somehow hire Blizzard Lead Designer Tom Chilton. I think he’d be very happy working on a full blown PVP MMO instead of the incohesive mess that currently typifies his work in WoW.

  • Viz

    @jinstevens
    PLEASE cede the sword & elf market. There have been too many such games already.

  • http://www.pkurflax.org Hermes

    Quick question from the peanut gallery… Does anyone recall EVE’s precise market trajectory post-release? That is, how long did it languish with little fanfare before they slowly started ramping up into the flourishing niche playerbase that they have now? Bonus points if you can also roughly correlate that with particular content updates and patches and whatnot.

    I ask because while I don’t necessarily like EVE, I think it’s one of the best examples we can look at of a niche game ‘done right’, and this is a good time for us as an industry to be learning from that sort of thing. Also, Darkfall may want to take notes. ;)

  • http://mikedarga.blogspot.com Mike Darga

    That’s more like it, Scott. Big group hug. I don’t know if I’ll play it, but I will probably buy a copy. I want this crazy ass-backwards game to succeed against the odds, so that *I* can have a chance later on at making a crazy ass-backwards game of my own.

    Hermes, EVE’s subscriber grows in a remarkably linear fashion, but in late 2005/early 2006 the slope of that line became noticeably steeper. They’ve grown at about .9 percent per week since launch, and are one of the few companies that are very free and public with their subscriber numbers.

    Writeup I did last month on EVE numbers versus WAR numbers:
    http://mikedarga.blogspot.com/2009/02/player-acquisition-vs-player-retention.html

    Some official subscriber numbers from EVE, under the guise of an economic report:
    http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=498

  • http://word-of-shadow.blogspot.com Melf_Himself

    “if we define successful as “competing with WoW””

    Why would we do that? I thought we defined successful as ‘returning the initial investment plus a profit’. You know that company you like to tell us you worked for? Guild Wars seems to have made quite a bit of profit for them. Yet they don’t make nearly as much money as WoW. Are they unsuccesful?

  • http://www.brokentoys.org/ Scott Jennings

    Melf_Himself :

    “if we define successful as “competing with WoW””

    Why would we do that? I thought we defined successful as ‘returning the initial investment plus a profit’. You know that company you like to tell us you worked for? Guild Wars seems to have made quite a bit of profit for them. Yet they don’t make nearly as much money as WoW. Are they unsuccesful?

    That sentence you quoted began with “We are coming to the point where there are literally only two companies that can make successful MMOs…”. I thought it would be fairly obvious, given that I work for neither one, that I’d prefer that not be the case, and thus would prefer that defining success as “competing with WoW” isn’t, in fact, how we define success. And in fact the entire gist of the blog article is, in fact, that success can be defined otherwise (financial, as you state, or artistically, preferably both).

    Nice backhanded slam with the “company you like to tell us you worked for”, though. Well played! How dare I say such things.

  • Iconic

    “EVE is a funny example to use though, because the only reason the game is still operating is because CCP are a bunch of stubborn bastards. They had a HORRIBLE launch, and had a beyond buggy game for quite some time. It’s only in the last 2-3 years that EVE has become something people know about, much less play.”

    Maybe the lesson is: You’re going to learn by making big mistakes or you’re going to learn from making small mistakes, but the key thing is that you learn and keep improving the product.

    There’s no short cut, so just take your lumps and keep growing.

    Blizzard didn’t start with World of Warcraft. They went through years of being barely recognized, then spent years growing their reputation and expertise with online PC games, and finally they put in a lot of time and effort (and mountains of money) to make World of Warcraft.

    Every one wants to be Blizzard without putting in the time to be Blizzard.

  • http://www.netharuka.com jinstevens

    Viz :
    @jinstevens
    PLEASE cede the sword & elf market. There have been too many such games already.

    I’m right there with you. I got tired of pointy ears and chainmail bikinis a long time ago. But with WoW being so predominant, it’s almost the only game in town…for now.

  • Craig

    Those who say that WoW *IS* the computer market has not yet played Drakensang…

    This game renewed a little bit of my feelings about what constitutes a fun game, and I recommend you at least try out the demo. No, I don’t have a link. ;)

  • sinij

    The first time I was pked my hands actually shook. That hasn’t happened since… I don’t know

    This is why people like me PvP. Please, for the love of gaming, someone make a game that I can enjoy.

    I don’t care if you call me a sociopath or masochist, as long as I am having fun. Why do you care if it takes stapling my cock to a cross and setting it on fire? I am not asking or expecting you to do the same, or even understand why I do it.

  • Viz

    sinij :

    The first time I was pked my hands actually shook. That hasn’t happened since… I don’t know

    This is why people like me PvP. Please, for the love of gaming, someone make a game that I can enjoy.
    I don’t care if you call me a sociopath or masochist, as long as I am having fun. Why do you care if it takes stapling my cock to a cross and setting it on fire? I am not asking or expecting you to do the same, or even understand why I do it.

    How are we still at this stage of the argument? Nobody is claiming that you’re a sociopath because you enjoy PVP. Few would even claim that someone who attacks prey that can’t effectively fight back is necessarily sociopathic–nobody claims that jumping miners in 0.0 space in EVE is sociopathic. What people think is sociopathic is harming other people who can’t fight back simply because you take sadistic delight in harming other people.

    There’s a difference between aggression, and aggression with malice. People feel differently when you attack them for reasons of competition and when you attack them simply to give them a hard time.

  • Jeff

    @Craig

    He is referring to the domination of WoW, WoW Battlechest, Burning Crusade and Wrath of the Lich king in the top 11 or so best sellers for PC games every month. When you look at the math, WoW is the computer gaming market, regardless of how good some game most of us have never heard of is.

  • Wufiavelli

    I think this game does have chance, the management is pretty bad but extremely dedicated. But the game is extremely stable, very few bugs, and solid gameplay. I have played it from korea with about 300ish ping and no lag issue. The combat is not your normal EQ a million different hot buttons, it is very simple yet complex once you learn to play with it.

    Right now the combat is kind of drawn out. I would enjoy it if they increased healing and damage to make the battles more back and forthish like in UO, but i am not sure what kind of balancing issues that would have in the end. They could of had a little more creativity in the melee, but as it is right now it works. It is a solid simple but complex system.

    The world design is top notch, even in beta i never really had issues with lack of mobs. This is when many mobs were being debugged. Mobs are not around every corner like most MMOs, but if went running for 5 minutes i normally found myself being assaulted. Traveling is something you do in darkfall you best get use to it.

    I very much enjoyed the PvE, their are issues of a decent amount of bugged mobs but when they are not bugged (most of the time) it is extremely fun. Not your normal pull whack whack, but a lot more involved. More of a fight then a farming.

    Right now the main problems are macroing and somewhat the rogue system. The speed hack everyone keeps complaining about is also sold for every other game on the market so this is not an exploit exclusive to DF.

  • http://crymore.de EpicSquirt

    Syncaine :
    EVE is a funny example to use though, because the only reason the game is still operating is because CCP are a bunch of stubborn bastards. They had a HORRIBLE launch, and had a beyond buggy game for quite some time. It’s only in the last 2-3 years that EVE has become something people know about, much less play. It’s funny that we expect DF to launch perfect, and then point to EVE and say ‘do that’. ‘Do that’ would mean launching a terrible game, supporting it for the 10-15k playing it for a year or two, and only after that finally see respectable (100k+) sub numbers.

    Stop legend building please, EVE didn’t have a horrible launch. There were only two game breaking bugs in EVE when it launched (sensor dampeners made you crash sometimes and damage modifiers stacked fully).

    The game started off with 3k users on the server at peak times and always grew from there.

    The drama in EVE was in from day one, check the official forums (m0o in Mara/Passari, RUS scoring first battleship kills against m0o, first Venal war, CA vs SA, a GM being podded).

    Did you play it when EVE got released? Can I have your character name from 2003 and the corporation you were in?

    EVE still operates because it was going for a niche from the beginning, it runs on one shard, it has a stable core of veteran players AND a not (yet?) ending blood transfusion.

  • http://crymore.de EpicSquirt

    Mike Darga :
    Writeup I did last month on EVE numbers versus WAR numbers:
    http://mikedarga.blogspot.com/2009/02/player-acquisition-vs-player-retention.html

    You might want to correct your writeup: CCP was selling boxes at first, through Simon & Schuster. At some point they bought the publishing rights for EVE back and went fully digital (which has been announced to change again with one of the expansions).

  • Longasc

    While I agree that niche games really could use some success and that it would be a blessing for the MMORPG world… Darkfall is going to kill itself, just like Shadowbane.

    PvP is the WORST setting for a MMO possible. Make it a fantasy all about pvp action game and scratch the levels and stats and skills and whatever. Focus on the combat, really.

    But do not put it into a wallpaper-style MMO world. It is totally unnecessary and people will so quickly get tired of this kind of MMO that it is not funny. Because all what it will have will be combat.

    We know how successful all “hardcore PvP” games were so far. Their focus was wrong and bound to fail.

  • VPellen

    If a game like World of Warcraft is killing our industry, then I’m pretty sure our industry has bigger problems than World of Warcraft.

  • http://bdadv.blogspot.com Bonedead

    Yeah, way to go Mr. Jennings, buy that shit mane, buy it good.

  • gyrus

    A lot of interesting side arguments here – so to take them one at a time;
    It must succeed… because the big-budget MMO business model is killing our industry.
    …but it is for a given market segment,…
    And if that given market segment does NOT embrace that, due to technical failures or simple boredom or the worst possible case of all, “You know, I could be playing WoW right now ”, that is also another case. A case that only $100m+ budgets can create a successful MMO. A case that only two companies are in a position to make MMOs.”
    While I firmly believe there IS a market for FFA PvP, RvR and GvG (Guild vs Guild)I do not think Darkfall will succeed in capturing that market. There are too many ‘bad’ design choices – or rather design choices that were not even considered at all.
    Population Balance for example?
    In order to make a successful PvP / RvR / GvG game the fact it IS PvP / RvR / GvG has to be factored into design from day 1. Everything has to be designed based on how it will work based on what happens as the result of a ‘victory’ from a single combat between two players alone in the wilderness to the overthrow of an Empire. IMO that is where most games have failed with their ‘PvP’ – the consequence has been thrown in at the 11th hour of design.
    Which brings me neatly to this;

    isildur :

    I think EVE’s solution is both simple and impractical for most games: their map is fucking huge. Conquering the whole world is implausible even for an extremely large and well-organized alliance. Unfortunately, many of the elements of their setting support a huge world, and many elements of more traditional settings do not.
    Given a massive budget and the ability to go back in time a few years, I’d probably move Pirates more towards ‘massive world, unconquerable PvE areas’. But ultimately, space simply lends itself well to gigantic worlds that can be created procedurally on a short timeline, and other settings don’t.
    I have yet to see any other solution to the core problem we’re ’solving’ with resets, although I believe there are other solutions.

    I think any setting supports a ‘huge world’. The secret to Pvp / RvR is time and space or if you prefer, the scale.
    To quote ‘Offspring’ IIRC “You gotta keep ‘em separated.”
    Make travel ‘times’ long and difficult. Sure you may be able to travel deep into the heart of your enemies lands – but it will take you a lot of time and effort to do so and it will take a lot of time and effort to get back out again.
    All the successful PvP / RvR games I have played (including browser based MMOs) use this element.
    PotBS gave up this element with the “Travel Map” resulting in one of the smallest game worlds out there (I can back that up by the way – although many disagree with my methodology).

    As for Darkfall itself, besides world size, I see a couple of strikes against it.
    No design for any kind of population balance – be that RvR (Race vs Race in the case of Darkfall) or GvG. In Darkfall, there is nothing to stop a single guild dominating a server – and that being the case I would say thet it is therefor certian that in time this is exactly what will happen.

    The second strike, discussed elsewhere on this site, is Darkfall’s terrible community. Again, something the developers should have been ‘designing’ from day 1. Again, a whole other discussion there.

    Edit: A side note I added here concerned the 100m dollars required to bring a game to market idea?
    I think the factor here is not to try to compete with WoW.
    Do something that is definitely NOT WoW.
    Wizard 101 as an example.
    Not even trying to be WoW or aim at WoW’s target market…clarity of design from day 1… and it is growing.

  • dartwick

    You sound nice and all but if DFO flops you are going to blame it on hardcore PVP.

    Of course if you made a PVE game with hacks and exploits this bad, no content, and out of date programming – no one would even bother explaining why it failed.

  • gyrus

    dartwick :
    You sound nice and all but if DFO flops you are going to blame it on hardcore PVP.
    Of course if you made a PVE game with hacks and exploits this bad, no content, and out of date programming – no one would even bother explaining why it failed.

    No. I play hardcore PvP and love it. But the games I play have good communities (or I wouldn’t stay)
    If / when Darkfall fails I will look subjectively at the evidence.
    That said, I already have a list of suspects;
    The community.
    The ‘wannabe PvPers’ (People claiming to be PvP that aren’t really up to it)
    The design.
    The poor implementation of that design (bugs hacks and exploits).

  • Vetarnias

    @dartwick
    To blame hardcore PvP would be completely unnecessary in the case of Darkfall.

    The few days of launch just speak for themselves. It’s not hardcore PvP or RvR that is to blame (if we exclude long-term consequences such as a lopsided map and the lack of player rejuvenation if they get ganked from the moment they log in). It’s all that goes around it. Exploits, for instance — this game seems to be a sieve when it comes to those.

    Or the rude mentality that goes with hardcore PvP, like those quotes from the Ten Ton Hammer article cited in a previous entry. If you gave me a FFA WWI air combat game, I could go Red Baron all over — ruthless, no pity given for I expect none — but I wouldn’t say after an engagement “go back to WoW carebear noob”.

    Maybe that’s what my own futility is demanding — some roleplaying in PvP (not that awful PvE trend featuring cardboard characters culled from the film of the moment). And that’s what I find lacking in this so-called “Darkfall community”. They gank and grief as they have done in every game, regardless of setting or game lore. They are contrary to what the spirit of an MMO should be.

    Just an example: In Pirates of the Burning Sea, I played a Frenchman. I was a trader, seeking to contribute to the war effort of King Louis XV in the Caribbean — not to mention my own enrichment. As a trader, I sank enemy ships if I had to, because my purpose was trade. For a while, I even pushed the idea further by putting together a newspaper promoting the French position on everything (which, because we were perennial losers, involved a fair number of factual liberties). That was what I did, and I enjoyed it tremendously.

    But I also saw in that game those who couldn’t have cared less whether they were a ship of the line or a spaceship or an elf rogue — in other words, the setting was nothing else than a means to an end. They didn’t care if what they did contributed to the war effort of their nation, because all they were after were their own jollies. There was a red circle, it didn’t matter if they or you were one of the belligerents in that particular case, they just ganked you anyway. Apart from their initial attachment to one faction based on real-life factors (which made a mockery of faction balance because everybody would go British or Pirate instead of “losers” like France or Spain), those players didn’t care about the faction itself (game design did not help, for example the absence of port governance). But in many cases for such players, the choice of a faction meant little more than Britain=Easy Road, France=Challenge and Pirate=Free Ships.

    There are exceptions — players who really care about the RvR and act honourably if with ruthless efficiency. Some of those guys are still in PotBS. But the griefers? Where are they now? Those guys have to account for much of what happened in the early months of PotBS — and they’re about to do it for Darkfall, by the looks of it.

    Just a long aside to say that the Darkfall community is a bit like that, only far worse because there are no restrictions. They aren’t what MMO’s should be about in my rose-tinted-glasses perspective. Playing an MMO means you actually care about the setting of the game. No matter how much lore Aventurine would write (but it’s not like there is any), those guys wouldn’t care. They’d blabber on about DPS and range and how to get the other guys tagged first. (That’s also why I never could quite get into WoW because of all those pop-culture references Blizzard put in.)

  • http://bdadv.blogspot.com Bonedead

    FYI: The Darkfall community is not viewed as a “terrible community” from within the community. So everyone saying that the community is a problem for the game needs to understand that the community likes itself just the way it is.

  • http://bifftheunderstudy.wordpress.com Dan Gray

    I’ve never seen much potential in Darkfall. Sure, it will probably score decent release figures, and maybe even experience growth for a while… but will it last? Or will it tail off and crawl into a corner like most other recent MMO releases?

    It takes a truly inspired game to make that kind of risk intensive PvP worthwhile and rewarding enough to stick with, and I just don’t think Darkfall is at at that level of depth or finesse.

    Is it a bad thing for the MMO industry if it fails? I don’t think so. More failed concepts just help to narrow the focus on things that do or don’t work, hopefully streamlining some developers into some more interesting concepts.

    The MMO industry desperately needs innovation. It needs designers who can think outside of the box. The only way to compete with Activizzard is with superior design and original ideas, not churning out buckets of poorly polished content that drains finances. This budget arms race is ridiculous, and at some point is going self destruct.

    Darkfall may not look like a direct competitor for with World of Warcraft, but it is still largely poaching from the same pool of players. Its niche market of existing players is too small to sustain it, leaving it with the need to pull in (and sustain) people that are new to the genre. That’s where I believe it will fail.

    How do you slay a giant? Not by using stilts to punch it in the face.

  • Haris

    My opinion is that this blog has been heavily undermining the game in a rather rabid fashion. If one trully wants something to succeed, the first step is to simply try to restrain themselves from being (among) the ones to undermine it. Submitting a ‘group hug’ post at the end of the day does nothing to undo all the previous damage done, nor to help the blogger’s credibility.

    By the way, I do not (, nor intend to) play Darkfall

  • gyrus

    Bonedead :
    FYI: The Darkfall community is not viewed as a “terrible community” from within the community. So everyone saying that the community is a problem for the game needs to understand that the community likes itself just the way it is.

    I agree – and that is part of the problem.
    The Darkfall community has been built around an accepted standard of behaviour.
    The trouble is, that that excepted standard is not very ‘nice’ (lack of a better word?).
    It’s roughly akin to saying “The inmate community at this prison is fine and the inmates see nothing wrong with it?”
    Darkfall’s community accepts trash talk as the norm. As a result, the community attracted ‘like minded’ people.
    It has grown into a community you definitely wouldn’t want to take to Grandma’s house.

  • http://syncaine.wordpress.com Syncaine

    Squirt, I could be wrong, but I don’t think S&S were looking to sell 15l-20k boxes of EVE. And while EVE history does indeed stretch back to launch, that says nothing about the state of the game then. Playable and worth playing are two very different things. EVE is a great game now, but lets not pretend it was like that in 2003.

  • Anticorium

    Submitting a ‘group hug’ post at the end of the day does nothing to undo all the previous damage done,

    If Darkfall is in such a precarious position that Lum can destroy it with meaniepants blog posts and a history lesson about DAoC’s FFA server, then it is in such a precarious position that it will die anyway. Compare the venom spilled about WoW in the Darkfall threads so far with WoW’s profitability and market share. A game bound for success will win even as people sneer at it; a failure will die no matter how much the audience claps harder.

    nor to help the blogger’s credibility

    Credibility with whom? To be blunt, Lum’s credibility with people who make MMOs seems pretty high lately; if Bartle or Psychochild or Isildur come by, it’s not to take potshots at him. Now, his credibility with you may be pretty low, but really, why should he care? Lots of people sleep plenty fine knowing that Some Guy On The Internet thinks they’re wrong.