IainC :
@Amaranthar
Umm yes, so what you’re saying is that it’s a bit like EvE’s hi-sec areas then.
Which coincidentally was also what I was saying…

Well, no, but it depends on whether you are talking about specific areas or game experience as a whole. In EVE, you have a much larger “secure” area and can play all aspects of the game (if not to the same degree) outside of PvP, where in Darkfall you most definitely can’t, even if you were more secure in the cities. But you aren’t. You are hemmed in, like fish in a net. The mayhem and chaos can come to you any time it wants, not just when it finds you. On top of that, I believe in EVE, attacking someone in the safe zone means instant destruction, does it not? In Darkfall, it doesn’t.
In EVE, I don’t know if a third party can loot a PK victim in the secure area, but they can in Darkfall with no ramification at all.

Which coincidentally was also what I was saying…

Yes, the Darkfall launch has been bad. Primarily due to a lack of resources to meet initial demand. You could argue there are some long term benefits to the throttled release (in juxtaposition to the WH launch with excessive capacity) – thats another discussion entirely. But the underlying gameplay is great, as long as full-loot, open pvp appeals to you. It is not for everyone, but there are some players out there who have been waiting for something like Darkfall since UO. The difference is we don’t spam WoW blogs or WoW forms with vitriol about why carebear games suck without even having ever played the game.

Yes, the game can be harsh to the solo player. A solo crafter will have a hard time being successful unless he is very good at the economics of buying low, crafting and selling high. Take it a step further though and stick a solo crafter into a guild that is willing to exchange protection and materials in return for gear and I think you end up with a very satisfying crafting meta game.

Regarding safe zones, there are no safe zones. Current mechanics do make it possible to be killed in town. Like I have said elsewhere, unless you’re AFK this should rarely happen. A solo player should not be able to kill you before dying to guards if you’re taking evasive action. See four guys trying to surround you? Run away. Darkfall Online quickly teaches you that you should always be prepared for the worst case scenario, ie if you need to go AFK in town, bank your gear first. It reminds me of the old saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Carebears just seem to not want to accept that shame.

I started writing a post on the Evil Bastages blog inspired by some of the comments here and just wrapped it up. You can read it here: http://evilbastages.blogspot.com/2009/03/darkfall-online-were-gonna-party-like.html

IainC :

Amaranthar :
Scott I disagree that EVE proves anything on open PvP. They have a safe zone. Sure, it’s not 100% safe, but safe enough to work. It’s their “Trammel”.

From what I’ve read of Darkfall (note: I do not play), the areas around watchtowers are at least as safe as hi-sec in EvE. Everywhere else from low-sec on out is open for consequence free ganking if you so choose.

Big difference, IainC. In EVE, the safe zone is large and allot of stuff can be safely harvested there. You can play in that zone and not have to ever leave it.
In Darkfall, aside from the idea of limiting yourself to just a city for your entire game play experience, they can even kill you there. They “get naked” so they don’t lose anything, except maybe a weapon if it’s better than a newbie weapon (which you never lose, and works well enough anyways) and gank you. Surrounded, you can’t run. The guard towers don’t instantly kill. So they can get plenty of hits on you with as many as can surround you, and you die quickly.
Then anyone can loot you. There’s no going gray for it.
So, in short, you die, they die, you get looted, they lose only what they carried if anything at all.

So, as I said earlier, any game like this has to have penalties for what should be considered crimes. If there’s any way around those penalties, they will abuse it and thus it simply doesn’t work.

Amaranthar :
Scott I disagree that EVE proves anything on open PvP. They have a safe zone. Sure, it’s not 100% safe, but safe enough to work. It’s their “Trammel”.

From what I’ve read of Darkfall (note: I do not play), the areas around watchtowers are at least as safe as hi-sec in EvE. Everywhere else from low-sec on out is open for consequence free ganking if you so choose.

I would rather give up MMOs entirely than join any of the guilds you listed.

Now that’s just mean. Greifer!!

Owain ab Arawn :

Paks :@sinij: And sure I know CoS and KGB (by the way Owain was that a recruitment post or what? )

Nope. I included the link merely to show that the KGB has a lot of experience in these games. Our membership requirements are pretty stingent, since we try to avoid adding jerks to the guild. Doesn’t always work, but we try.

Good on ya. I do wish you all luck.

They are currently experiencing severe growning pains, and I hope they survive the process. I will be the first to agree that their distribution and roll out methods are not currently ready for prime time, but that is an area that can be improved. The actual game, from what I’ve gathered from my many friends in game, is good. That is not to say there are no problems, but the basic game appears to be far better at this early stage of the game than other games months after release, again, such as Vanguard or Age of Conan.

Poor distribution can be fixed. Poor gameplay is much more difficult.

I am not denying that DF is choke-full of bad design decisions and that they are repeating many mistakes that are at this point should be well-understood and easily avoided. There is no way around saying this – DarkFall is deeply flawed mmorpg. Still, DF’s flaws have nothing to do with Open PvP, Full Loot or multiple non-DIKU elements that irks so many posters here.

Perhaps developers should take notes, Open PvP players are willing to endure inferior product just to enjoy their preferred game play. If this isn’t market opportunity for a solid niche game, I don’t know what is.

I haven’t seen anyone criticize Aventurine for anything other than

(a) a badly mismanaged launch which continues (no actual games for sale other than sporadically, only one server on release, which may be wise if they think their sales have peaked but irritate people waiting on queues)
(b) a toxic community that is hyperaggressive and hyperdefensive of any criticism, which is encouraged by the braggadocio of the developers
(c) (and very much less than the others) personal distaste for open-no-rules PvP.

And Eve, not to belabor the point, has proven that open-no-rules PvP does have a profitable market.