Jeff :

Raethys : And Mythic is a decent team. Just like Bioware.

@Raethys
Fact check time. Bioware hits every game out of the park. I don’t need to read a single preview or review before I buy Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2. I KNOW they are going to be that good. I’ll even buy SWTOR based on that faith in their product.
Mythic at best had one decent hit, after that it was one giant swing and a miss.

The issue at hand is not really whether or not Bioware as a company made good games, but whether or not Bioware will even truly be Bioware anymore. A company is not just a name and a library of past achievments, but an organization of people. Thus far, EA has a track record of buying the name and library and the people that made that name and made that library of titles, dissolve back out into the market. It is happening to Mythic, it has happened to others, it very well might happen to Bioware.

Jeff, you are not trusting Bioware, who makes games you love. You are trusting EA to keep the core of Bioware together so they can continue making the kinds of games you love. Where does your faith in EA come from?

Cymbaline :

Raethys :if all EA cares about is subscriber numbers, then that’s their problem, and it will soon become clear.

Well, it would appear to me that it’s not just their problem, it’s Mark Jacobs’ as well now.

J. :Bioware has yet to make a failed game. They’ve got life in them yet.

Jeff :I disagree. Granted, this is Bioware’s first attempt at an MMO, but that aside they have ALWAYS delivered the goods. I can’t say that about any other company.

Well, I hope they’ve got life in them yet, though I fear the effect of EA ownership. They’ve pretty handily trashed every game studio they’ve gotten their hands on. And I would also say that another game studio that has always delivered the goods was the one that helped give Bioware its start – Black Isle. Assuming you stick to the games they developed, and not the ones that Interplay slapped the Black Isle logo on, that is.
More relevantly, and in reply to both of you, I’d dispute Bioware’s record being flawless. In my estimation, Jade Empire was a pretty average game: the RPG elements were solid, but the action core left much to be desired, which made the overall product feel rather uninspired. Similarly, the module creation engine that was Neverwinter Nights was great, but the game that Bioware made to show it off was certainly sub-par. Given the death of Black Isle and the inability of their various successors (Obsidian, Troika) to completely pull it together, I’d say that Bioware is probably the premier producer of western RPGs today, which is my favorite genre. They’re great, but neither their track record nor their titles are perfect.

Hmm.

Let me put it this way. I enjoyed both those games that you mentioned, but I still enjoyed them immensely. I think NWN was the one game where they have diverted from their “formula”, why I couldn’t tell you.

Still, in baseball terms I would say most of Bioware’s games are home runs. Especially these days, they have their formula perfected and are most working on their own IPs.

Jade Empire was a duoble, NWN was a single. Still better than most of the schlock on the shelves these days, which are strikeouts.

BG2 and expansion was epic Bioware. They strayed a bit after that but with KOTOR, ME they perfected their formula, and I have no doubts that ME 2, Dragon Age will rock.

SWTOR? I am hopeful. The doubt comes from Lucas Arts. Was hard to tell who REALLY botched SWG. Was it SOE or Lucas Arts? If it was LA, did they learn? Time will tell.

1) Too much Crowd Control. Wayyyyyyyyy too much.

2) Bright Wizards and Warrior Priests a thousand times better than every other class in the game.

3) End game RvR is not fun and feels meaningless.

Mark Jacobs is a guy who tells people to believe his outsized claims, and invites them to hold him accountable later on. Ultimately his bosses held him accountable.

I’m sorry to see any one lose their job, ever, but in MJ’s case it was predictable. Good luck to him though.

Raethys :

1) 1.4 million boxes sold and only 200-350k subscribers remining.
Again, what exactly does this mean? I don’t think there’s a single subscription MMO out there, besides WoW, that has exceeded its initial subscribers within its first year. Again, I have to say, using the numbers excuse is the least thoughtful and most personally damning one, and the fact that you quickly bring it up as your first reason is telling.
I suppose selling more burgers and fries makes McD’s the best food in the world. I suppose selling more albums makes Britney Spears the best musician. What exactly do those numbers mean? That most people don’t know what a good thing is? That most people don’t care?

You completely missed his point. He’s talking about user retention not just sub numbers.

Raethys :
if all EA cares about is subscriber numbers, then that’s their problem, and it will soon become clear.

Well, it would appear to me that it’s not just their problem, it’s Mark Jacobs’ as well now.

J. :
Bioware has yet to make a failed game. They’ve got life in them yet.

Jeff :
I disagree. Granted, this is Bioware’s first attempt at an MMO, but that aside they have ALWAYS delivered the goods. I can’t say that about any other company.

Well, I hope they’ve got life in them yet, though I fear the effect of EA ownership. They’ve pretty handily trashed every game studio they’ve gotten their hands on. And I would also say that another game studio that has always delivered the goods was the one that helped give Bioware its start – Black Isle. Assuming you stick to the games they developed, and not the ones that Interplay slapped the Black Isle logo on, that is.

More relevantly, and in reply to both of you, I’d dispute Bioware’s record being flawless. In my estimation, Jade Empire was a pretty average game: the RPG elements were solid, but the action core left much to be desired, which made the overall product feel rather uninspired. Similarly, the module creation engine that was Neverwinter Nights was great, but the game that Bioware made to show it off was certainly sub-par. Given the death of Black Isle and the inability of their various successors (Obsidian, Troika) to completely pull it together, I’d say that Bioware is probably the premier producer of western RPGs today, which is my favorite genre. They’re great, but neither their track record nor their titles are perfect.

Blake :
You get one shot to make it. You fail you’re done. No second chances. Not saying that I like that mentality that’s just the way it is.

Right, and all that indicates is how unrealistic the gaming community really is. Nobody gets anything “right” the first time, *especially* if they’re pioneering new concepts and ideas (and yes, even if they’re not completely original, they’re still pioneering and exploring them). If there was a little more appreciation, a little more patience, a little more understanding, (I mean, these games are around for years, folks. No reason you can’t wait six months or longer and come back to it; I’ve done that with practically every game I’ve ever had.) and overall a little more maturity on the part of the gamers, this “DO IT RIGHT, THE FIRST TIME” mentality would be frankly embarrassing to even have.

In a world where downloading patches is as routine as “every Tuesday”, saying that it is *imperative* that any company gets their game *perfect* out of the gate smacks of a middle-school console no-patch-ever mindset.

1) 1.4 million boxes sold and only 200-350k subscribers remining.

Again, what exactly does this mean? I don’t think there’s a single subscription MMO out there, besides WoW, that has exceeded its initial subscribers within its first year. Again, I have to say, using the numbers excuse is the least thoughtful and most personally damning one, and the fact that you quickly bring it up as your first reason is telling.

I suppose selling more burgers and fries makes McD’s the best food in the world. I suppose selling more albums makes Britney Spears the best musician. What exactly do those numbers mean? That most people don’t know what a good thing is? That most people don’t care?

2) Many of the hyped promises were never delivered.

Initially? Is that what you’re hammering on? Do you remember how many hyped promises Blizzard has made with WoW that haven’t been delivered on initially?

If you’re talking since release to present (and likely future), then you are completely incorrect. Several expansion sized patches later, and we’ve got a lot of those promises fulfilled (balanced combat, more scenarios, live events, more in-game content, UI-design that makes all the modding bullshit you have to do with WoW obselete or clunky at best, game play that appeals to many more styles, new classes….). At the rate they’re going, they’re fulfilling them Faster and Better than Blizzard ever has. If that isn’t success, I don’t know what is.

3) The vaunted end game RvR was broken.
“Was broken” – are we going off initial release again? I’ve been to the endgame. Looks fine to me. Granted, moving server populations and RVR and PVP present issues that WoW has never even had to address, either at all, or on the scale of what Mythic has/is trying to accomplish with their balancing act, the mechanics of their game, and the functionality of making their concept of end-game work.

4) Terrible class balance in RvR.

If this isn’t one of the most common complaints in any game that has PVP or RVR, I don’t know what is, and all games have heard it, “successful” or otherwise, so that kind of makes it irrelevant as a criteria or factor of assessment.

On another note, the only reason I even brought up WAR is because so many people here are equating Mark Jacobs losing his position as evidence of WAR’s failure, when at best, I see that as an irrelevant logical fallacy that’s quite easy and tempting for people who dislike the game anyway to make.

Given the state of the economy, the massive number of MMOs out there (and on the horizon) MMO teams need to realize that the days of releasing a beta game and patching it for a year while people happily pay to play an unfinished/broken game are over.

You get one shot to make it. You fail you’re done. No second chances. Not saying that I like that mentality that’s just the way it is.

Jacobs just paid the price for his arrogance. I’d be shocked if Barnett wasn’t far behind him.