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	<title>Comments on: The Casual Gaming Market Goes Literally Insane</title>
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	<description>Random Comments About Gaming And Tractors</description>
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		<title>By: Naltharial</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31927</link>
		<dc:creator>Naltharial</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Nov 2010 09:13:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31927</guid>
		<description>You jest, but some people from Slovenia might actually read the blog. ;)

Our jester hats are awesome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You jest, but some people from Slovenia might actually read the blog. <img src='http://www.brokentoys.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Our jester hats are awesome.</p>
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		<title>By: Hatch</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31926</link>
		<dc:creator>Hatch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 05:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31926</guid>
		<description>I find it ironic that they&#039;ve canned box sales for the most part. It used to be faster to get to walmart and pick up a copy of diablo 2 than to pirate diablo 2. Now they&#039;re making me choose between downloading it legally and pirating, they need to thank their stars that D2D maxes out my connection, or there would be no reason for me to legally download (I have no soul).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it ironic that they&#8217;ve canned box sales for the most part. It used to be faster to get to walmart and pick up a copy of diablo 2 than to pirate diablo 2. Now they&#8217;re making me choose between downloading it legally and pirating, they need to thank their stars that D2D maxes out my connection, or there would be no reason for me to legally download (I have no soul).</p>
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		<title>By: Dblade</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31925</link>
		<dc:creator>Dblade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 23:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31925</guid>
		<description>Why are you blaming Best Buy Hellfire? Blame Steam: it killed PC game retailing just like Netflix is killing Video rental stores. PC games compared to console ones are much more vulnerable to digital distribution, pirate or not. No sense in having physical boxes when Steam has $5 games or even free ones. Of course they are going to carry console games: even with larger hard drives, its still not feasible to digitally buy and download the complex ones, and many console games never get rereleased.

I&#039;m not going to touch piracy. Legitmate sales alone are what killed the PC physical market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why are you blaming Best Buy Hellfire? Blame Steam: it killed PC game retailing just like Netflix is killing Video rental stores. PC games compared to console ones are much more vulnerable to digital distribution, pirate or not. No sense in having physical boxes when Steam has $5 games or even free ones. Of course they are going to carry console games: even with larger hard drives, its still not feasible to digitally buy and download the complex ones, and many console games never get rereleased.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to touch piracy. Legitmate sales alone are what killed the PC physical market.</p>
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		<title>By: Vetarnias</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31924</link>
		<dc:creator>Vetarnias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 22:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31924</guid>
		<description>@Stupid

The problem I see with consoles, however, is that they fare rather badly for strategy games.  Sure, they&#039;re an ideal platform for twitch-based games, but can you imagine playing an intricate strategy game, say Civilization V, on a console, when you need to point and click and micromanage everything?

I would have nothing against consoles (though if all games were only available through them, I&#039;d give up on gaming altogether), except when they start having an impact on the type of games that get made.  I don&#039;t care for FPS -- I&#039;ve never had quick reflexes, so I&#039;m quite lousy at them -- and there seems to be less variety in today&#039;s console game genres than there was in the time of the NES.  As it stands, the only advantage of consoles I can see is that you know that the game will run on it, as opposed to the crapshoot that is your average computer game.

The Wiimote certainly broke some ground, but as I mentioned above, I believe Kinect and PS Move are going in the wrong direction, and I think they will fail.  That&#039;s not wishful thinking; Wii was &quot;casual&quot; and &quot;family-friendly&quot; enough (cue in my friend&#039;s &#039;filthy casuals&#039;), but xBox and PS3 avoided going in that direction from the start, and now they&#039;re going for the same &quot;casual&quot; appeal they never tried to reach in the first place.  But their core gamer demographic doesn&#039;t want to move around to play their games; I suspect they&#039;re perfectly content to behave as couch potatoes and let their thumbs do all the work.  In addition, such gimmicks only succeed in linking their in-game achievements to their physical prowess, and how many traditional gamers want that?  How many gamers are, like me, physically inept?  If I wanted physical exercise, I&#039;d buy a treadmill, step outside, or join the army.  I&#039;m just surprised the Wii managed to pull it off.

Worse, there is no immersion. I&#039;ve always been fascinated by virtual reality (yes, I&#039;m so 1993), and I despise seeing the term being applied to a wider range of products that have nothing to do with it.  An appealing form of VR would be, for example, a bicycle racing game with you on the bike, and the image projected inside a helmet visor (as if you were really wearing a biking helmet).  The immersion would be as complete as could be, and your movements, even though you would probably be no Lance Armstrong, would actually make sense in relation to the game itself.  Kinect  is but a crude version of motion capture (I still haven&#039;t forgotten that Project Natal video last year), and what&#039;s more, movement reproduction is a mere approximation; so you just end up looking stupid, no matter how much ad money Microsoft and Sony can blow getting people with strenuous gaming credentials like Felicia Day to demonstrate it to the awed masses blocking circulation at your nearest gaming convention to tell you otherwise.  (Not to mention: I don&#039;t have that amount of space to move around, and I wonder what the neighbour downstairs would say if I started a Kinect gaming routine when I usually play, at 4 in the morning. But I know, I get the message: it&#039;s not for me.  I don&#039;t know who it&#039;s for, though.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Stupid</p>
<p>The problem I see with consoles, however, is that they fare rather badly for strategy games.  Sure, they&#8217;re an ideal platform for twitch-based games, but can you imagine playing an intricate strategy game, say Civilization V, on a console, when you need to point and click and micromanage everything?</p>
<p>I would have nothing against consoles (though if all games were only available through them, I&#8217;d give up on gaming altogether), except when they start having an impact on the type of games that get made.  I don&#8217;t care for FPS &#8212; I&#8217;ve never had quick reflexes, so I&#8217;m quite lousy at them &#8212; and there seems to be less variety in today&#8217;s console game genres than there was in the time of the NES.  As it stands, the only advantage of consoles I can see is that you know that the game will run on it, as opposed to the crapshoot that is your average computer game.</p>
<p>The Wiimote certainly broke some ground, but as I mentioned above, I believe Kinect and PS Move are going in the wrong direction, and I think they will fail.  That&#8217;s not wishful thinking; Wii was &#8220;casual&#8221; and &#8220;family-friendly&#8221; enough (cue in my friend&#8217;s &#8216;filthy casuals&#8217;), but xBox and PS3 avoided going in that direction from the start, and now they&#8217;re going for the same &#8220;casual&#8221; appeal they never tried to reach in the first place.  But their core gamer demographic doesn&#8217;t want to move around to play their games; I suspect they&#8217;re perfectly content to behave as couch potatoes and let their thumbs do all the work.  In addition, such gimmicks only succeed in linking their in-game achievements to their physical prowess, and how many traditional gamers want that?  How many gamers are, like me, physically inept?  If I wanted physical exercise, I&#8217;d buy a treadmill, step outside, or join the army.  I&#8217;m just surprised the Wii managed to pull it off.</p>
<p>Worse, there is no immersion. I&#8217;ve always been fascinated by virtual reality (yes, I&#8217;m so 1993), and I despise seeing the term being applied to a wider range of products that have nothing to do with it.  An appealing form of VR would be, for example, a bicycle racing game with you on the bike, and the image projected inside a helmet visor (as if you were really wearing a biking helmet).  The immersion would be as complete as could be, and your movements, even though you would probably be no Lance Armstrong, would actually make sense in relation to the game itself.  Kinect  is but a crude version of motion capture (I still haven&#8217;t forgotten that Project Natal video last year), and what&#8217;s more, movement reproduction is a mere approximation; so you just end up looking stupid, no matter how much ad money Microsoft and Sony can blow getting people with strenuous gaming credentials like Felicia Day to demonstrate it to the awed masses blocking circulation at your nearest gaming convention to tell you otherwise.  (Not to mention: I don&#8217;t have that amount of space to move around, and I wonder what the neighbour downstairs would say if I started a Kinect gaming routine when I usually play, at 4 in the morning. But I know, I get the message: it&#8217;s not for me.  I don&#8217;t know who it&#8217;s for, though.)</p>
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		<title>By: hellfire</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31923</link>
		<dc:creator>hellfire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31923</guid>
		<description>Note to self, when you are interrupted mid-paragraph proof-read your post before hitting submit.
 
RE: Wing Commander - Had I not been in the store I would have missed the boat on one of the best games the industry has ever produced. Also, this occurred like 2 years after the anecdote contained in the next few sentences.
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note to self, when you are interrupted mid-paragraph proof-read your post before hitting submit.<br />
 <br />
RE: Wing Commander &#8211; Had I not been in the store I would have missed the boat on one of the best games the industry has ever produced. Also, this occurred like 2 years after the anecdote contained in the next few sentences.<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: hellfire</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31922</link>
		<dc:creator>hellfire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 21:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31922</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for growth. I&#039;m also all for digital distribution. Not necessarily because I like the model (I&#039;m ambivalent) but because Valve has pretty much done it 100% right. The only major issue I have with Steam at this point is that they allow games to be ported in without *completely* removing their DRM. Steam just verified my game purchase as legit, please keep your grubby SecuROM off my rig, thanks. I still use Impulse for all my Stardock purchases. I could buy them through Steam as well, but folks who ship games without DRM deserve 100% of my dolla-dolla bills.
 
I think back to the days of the Gold Box games and seeing a copy of Wing Commander on the shelf. I had heard nothing of the game up until that point. It may not matter in the long run, but I think we lose something pretty important when we divorce ourselves from that physical experience. I think of it like new comic day. Maybe it&#039;s just nostalgia. I still remember walking into Radio Shack with every intention of buying a new remote for my hobby-built RC car and, instead, walked out with Pool of Radiance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m all for growth. I&#8217;m also all for digital distribution. Not necessarily because I like the model (I&#8217;m ambivalent) but because Valve has pretty much done it 100% right. The only major issue I have with Steam at this point is that they allow games to be ported in without *completely* removing their DRM. Steam just verified my game purchase as legit, please keep your grubby SecuROM off my rig, thanks. I still use Impulse for all my Stardock purchases. I could buy them through Steam as well, but folks who ship games without DRM deserve 100% of my dolla-dolla bills.<br />
 <br />
I think back to the days of the Gold Box games and seeing a copy of Wing Commander on the shelf. I had heard nothing of the game up until that point. It may not matter in the long run, but I think we lose something pretty important when we divorce ourselves from that physical experience. I think of it like new comic day. Maybe it&#8217;s just nostalgia. I still remember walking into Radio Shack with every intention of buying a new remote for my hobby-built RC car and, instead, walked out with Pool of Radiance.</p>
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		<title>By: Guy</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31921</link>
		<dc:creator>Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31921</guid>
		<description>Yeah, you don&#039;t go into a Gamestop for PC games...

&quot;As soon as I saw the gorgeous HD graphics on a 50-inch HDTV I knew that the days of PC gaming were numbered.&quot;

You can always hook up the PC to the TV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, you don&#8217;t go into a Gamestop for PC games&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;As soon as I saw the gorgeous HD graphics on a 50-inch HDTV I knew that the days of PC gaming were numbered.&#8221;</p>
<p>You can always hook up the PC to the TV.</p>
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		<title>By: Cymbaline</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31920</link>
		<dc:creator>Cymbaline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31920</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;comment-43472&quot;&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-43472&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Vetarnias&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;: To put it succinctly: What the hell has happened to gaming?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The same thing that happened to movies and music.  It became an Industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="comment-43472"><p><strong><a href="#comment-43472" rel="nofollow">Vetarnias</a></strong>: To put it succinctly: What the hell has happened to gaming?</p></blockquote>
<p>The same thing that happened to movies and music.  It became an Industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Stupid</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31919</link>
		<dc:creator>Stupid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31919</guid>
		<description>&quot;That’s why ‘social gaming’ and the ‘casual market’ are really growing  while the more ‘hardcore’ market, outside of WoW, is stagnating; not  because your average gamer is too busy changing diapers to dedicate his  entire free time to video games, but because the money is lacking, and  he has nowhere else to go.  Your average person does not buy a new  computer for Age of Conan only to throw it out two years later when the  next shiny game comes out.&quot;
 
I came to this same conclusion in 2008 when I bought my PS3. As soon as I saw the gorgeous HD graphics on a 50-inch HDTV I knew that the days of PC gaming were numbered. I don&#039;t even -like- FPS games, and I think your average XBL gamer should be euthanized as a gift to society as a whole, but the quality, variety and availability of games on non-PC platforms.
 
That was three years ago. Now we have a PS3, a Wii, a PSP, not one, but two DS systems, and we&#039;re looking at picking up a used 360. In the same time period, I&#039;ve upgraded our PCs with new video cards (one each), LCD monitors (one extra each), a burn power supply which fired a mainboard/CPU combo. I&#039;ve spent easily five times as much money on the PCs as on non-PC platforms, for far less usability.
 
I think we need to stop thinking of them as &quot;casual&quot; (as opposed to &quot;hardcore&quot;) games, but rather as &quot;accessible&quot; (as opposed to &quot;expensive&quot;) games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That’s why ‘social gaming’ and the ‘casual market’ are really growing  while the more ‘hardcore’ market, outside of WoW, is stagnating; not  because your average gamer is too busy changing diapers to dedicate his  entire free time to video games, but because the money is lacking, and  he has nowhere else to go.  Your average person does not buy a new  computer for Age of Conan only to throw it out two years later when the  next shiny game comes out.&#8221;<br />
 <br />
I came to this same conclusion in 2008 when I bought my PS3. As soon as I saw the gorgeous HD graphics on a 50-inch HDTV I knew that the days of PC gaming were numbered. I don&#8217;t even -like- FPS games, and I think your average XBL gamer should be euthanized as a gift to society as a whole, but the quality, variety and availability of games on non-PC platforms.<br />
 <br />
That was three years ago. Now we have a PS3, a Wii, a PSP, not one, but two DS systems, and we&#8217;re looking at picking up a used 360. In the same time period, I&#8217;ve upgraded our PCs with new video cards (one each), LCD monitors (one extra each), a burn power supply which fired a mainboard/CPU combo. I&#8217;ve spent easily five times as much money on the PCs as on non-PC platforms, for far less usability.<br />
 <br />
I think we need to stop thinking of them as &#8220;casual&#8221; (as opposed to &#8220;hardcore&#8221;) games, but rather as &#8220;accessible&#8221; (as opposed to &#8220;expensive&#8221;) games.</p>
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		<title>By: Vetarnias</title>
		<link>http://www.brokentoys.org/2010/07/28/the-casual-gaming-market-goes-literally-insane/comment-page-1/#comment-31918</link>
		<dc:creator>Vetarnias</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brokentoys.org/?p=4638#comment-31918</guid>
		<description>Regarding GameStop, I remember the last time I went to an EB store (last April), and it was a sad sight.  Like Hellfire above, I saw that the PC gaming section, which once had taken up an entire wall just a few years ago, had been pushed back and back until it was reduced to just a corner.  And the selection they had was not better: very few high-profile titles, a lot of educational or cheap adventure games, most of which I&#039;d never heard of, and more than a few had been there long enough for their price tags to have turned yellow.  Plenty of console games, though; and looking at the shelves, I thought to myself, with quite too much self-loathing to my liking, &quot;I&#039;m too old for this.&quot;

The console is back, with every company aping one another over the next fad; but what&#039;s the point to bicker over which of Kinect or Move will better fulfill its promises -- not that I care, since I don&#039;t own a console -- when it&#039;s their basic principle that is fatally faulty?  When I end up on the same side of a debate as Yahtzee, something is not quite right -- and recently I seem to agree with him all the time.

To put it succinctly: What the hell has happened to gaming?  It&#039;s not that I&#039;m older, and I&#039;m not one to go for rhetoric like &#039;filthy casuals&#039;.  I just think it&#039;s that the industry has now lost the last vestiges of its &#039;homespun&#039; nerdy aspect, to replace it with crass mainstream commercialism; and whoever says crass mainstream commercialism, coupled with increasing production costs, means a general dumbing-down of what is offered.  All in over-exploited franchises that used to mean something, but not anymore.  What a coincidence, the high festival of vacuous gaming has just concluded in San Diego.

Paradoxically, all those AAA studios are expecting their clientele to keep up with Moore&#039;s Law as well as they do, even in the middle of a recession, leaving out an (I suspect) increasing number of people.  Case in point: Final Fantasy XIV; Keen of Keen and Graev wrote a post on trying out the FFXIV benchmark only to find out that his computer was incapable of running the game, and he bought it at around the time Age of Conan came out -- two years ago. Really, they&#039;re expecting a minimum of 1.5GB RAM on a Windows XP system?  So no money for SquareEnix from me.

Maybe that&#039;s why &#039;social gaming&#039; and the &#039;casual market&#039; are really growing while the more &#039;hardcore&#039; market, outside of WoW, is stagnating; not because your average gamer is too busy changing diapers to dedicate his entire free time to video games, but because the money is lacking, and he has nowhere else to go.  And your average person does not buy a new computer for Age of Conan only to throw it out two years later when the next shiny game comes out; in my case, my most recent computer is from 2007, which I use for gaming (an ever dwindling selection these days), but for everyday tasks, I prefer the sturdy reliability of my 2004 antique.

I think it&#039;s where all those developing companies make a mistake: The casual market isn&#039;t one of choice, or of lifestyle; the casual market is in fact a captive one.  Give or take a few &#039;hardcore&#039; games with unpopular features (FFA PvP, full-loot, etc), is there a natural boundary between a player of WoW (the closest to casual among traditional games) and, say, EVE or Age of Conan or Warhammer Online?  A Tale in the Desert, casual or not? Wurm Online, casual or not?  Puzzle Pirates, casual or not? (The last might be a typical &quot;casual&quot; title, but I have known people who played it hour after hour after hour.  Some journeys lasted a full three hours; how does that compare to your average WoW raid?) Apart from those games where victory is guaranteed to the largest group who grinds the most, I find that we can&#039;t really talk of a rift between casual and regular gaming, except on a technological/economic scale.  As a result of it, I&#039;m thrown in with the casuals, much against my own will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding GameStop, I remember the last time I went to an EB store (last April), and it was a sad sight.  Like Hellfire above, I saw that the PC gaming section, which once had taken up an entire wall just a few years ago, had been pushed back and back until it was reduced to just a corner.  And the selection they had was not better: very few high-profile titles, a lot of educational or cheap adventure games, most of which I&#8217;d never heard of, and more than a few had been there long enough for their price tags to have turned yellow.  Plenty of console games, though; and looking at the shelves, I thought to myself, with quite too much self-loathing to my liking, &#8220;I&#8217;m too old for this.&#8221;</p>
<p>The console is back, with every company aping one another over the next fad; but what&#8217;s the point to bicker over which of Kinect or Move will better fulfill its promises &#8212; not that I care, since I don&#8217;t own a console &#8212; when it&#8217;s their basic principle that is fatally faulty?  When I end up on the same side of a debate as Yahtzee, something is not quite right &#8212; and recently I seem to agree with him all the time.</p>
<p>To put it succinctly: What the hell has happened to gaming?  It&#8217;s not that I&#8217;m older, and I&#8217;m not one to go for rhetoric like &#8216;filthy casuals&#8217;.  I just think it&#8217;s that the industry has now lost the last vestiges of its &#8216;homespun&#8217; nerdy aspect, to replace it with crass mainstream commercialism; and whoever says crass mainstream commercialism, coupled with increasing production costs, means a general dumbing-down of what is offered.  All in over-exploited franchises that used to mean something, but not anymore.  What a coincidence, the high festival of vacuous gaming has just concluded in San Diego.</p>
<p>Paradoxically, all those AAA studios are expecting their clientele to keep up with Moore&#8217;s Law as well as they do, even in the middle of a recession, leaving out an (I suspect) increasing number of people.  Case in point: Final Fantasy XIV; Keen of Keen and Graev wrote a post on trying out the FFXIV benchmark only to find out that his computer was incapable of running the game, and he bought it at around the time Age of Conan came out &#8212; two years ago. Really, they&#8217;re expecting a minimum of 1.5GB RAM on a Windows XP system?  So no money for SquareEnix from me.</p>
<p>Maybe that&#8217;s why &#8216;social gaming&#8217; and the &#8216;casual market&#8217; are really growing while the more &#8216;hardcore&#8217; market, outside of WoW, is stagnating; not because your average gamer is too busy changing diapers to dedicate his entire free time to video games, but because the money is lacking, and he has nowhere else to go.  And your average person does not buy a new computer for Age of Conan only to throw it out two years later when the next shiny game comes out; in my case, my most recent computer is from 2007, which I use for gaming (an ever dwindling selection these days), but for everyday tasks, I prefer the sturdy reliability of my 2004 antique.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s where all those developing companies make a mistake: The casual market isn&#8217;t one of choice, or of lifestyle; the casual market is in fact a captive one.  Give or take a few &#8216;hardcore&#8217; games with unpopular features (FFA PvP, full-loot, etc), is there a natural boundary between a player of WoW (the closest to casual among traditional games) and, say, EVE or Age of Conan or Warhammer Online?  A Tale in the Desert, casual or not? Wurm Online, casual or not?  Puzzle Pirates, casual or not? (The last might be a typical &#8220;casual&#8221; title, but I have known people who played it hour after hour after hour.  Some journeys lasted a full three hours; how does that compare to your average WoW raid?) Apart from those games where victory is guaranteed to the largest group who grinds the most, I find that we can&#8217;t really talk of a rift between casual and regular gaming, except on a technological/economic scale.  As a result of it, I&#8217;m thrown in with the casuals, much against my own will.</p>
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