NOTE: I have edited the original log to try and add some coherency to the order of peoples responses. If there’s a big demand for the original log, I’ll post it in its original state. In the meantime, what I did was cut and pasted statements to put the lines from complete thoughts next to each other, and I used blockquoting to separate off minor discussion threads that were a bit off of the main topic.

Additionally, here’s a little intro snip from the IRC chat that took place the same day introducing an article concept that this whole update kind of fits into.

[21:58] (Hedron) : hey

[21:58] (Hedron) : let me bounce something off you guys

[21:58] (Hedron) : I had an idea a while back that it would be fun to pick topics like these

[21:58] (Hedron) : and debate any given reader base “champion”

[21:59] (Hedron) : The problem I always have with these discussions is that I end up responding to 14 people

[21:59] (Hedron) : and never really get to drive through to a conclusion

[21:59] 01(Pander01): That’s the problem.

[21:59] 01(Pander01): Each of those 14 people have different opinions.

[21:59] (Hedron) : You guys think it would be intersting to pick a person from your numbers and set up say an IRC debate

[21:59] (Hedron) : publish the results, etc.

[21:59] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): YES

[21:59] 01(Pander01): And if it’s 14-1, you should realize that something is WRONG.

[21:59] 14(@Soulflame14): heh

[21:59] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): You might want to try something less formal first.

[21:59] 01(Pander01): If it’s 14 against YOU, then maybe you are not exactly striking a chord with yoru logic.

[22:00] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): I would love folks to get together to discuss different aspects of MMOGs at times

[22:00] (Hedron) : Well, Pander, I would even debate with ALL 14. Just not all at once, ya know. That way we could reach conclusions with each view point rather than go an inch deep with 14 people and then quit

[22:00] * Soulflame shrugs

[22:00] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): and then post said results

[22:00] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Announce a topic ahead of time, pick a few hours specifically, and direct everyone’s attention toward that particular timeframe.

[22:00] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): Mys could have a round table or something

[22:00] (Hedron) : Pander, LOL! 14 to 1 and something is wrong?

[22:00] 01(Pander01): Interesting though…

[22:00] 01(Pander01): thought.

[22:00] 01(Pander01): A round-table of average joes.

[22:00] (Hedron) : So next time you get ganked ina dungeon somewhere by 14 pvpers, you’ll know you were wrong to want to adventure?

[22:00] 01(Pander01): We’re not dev team members…well, at least most of us, yet…

[22:00] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): Oh, that’s hard Pander

[22:00] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): that’s the advantage of announcing publicly and ahead of time

[22:00] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): not one of us is an average joe

[22:01] 01(Pander01): Hedron: you gated those 14 guys in.

[22:01] (Hedron) : I really don’t want to do a round table

[22:01] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Presumably people with strong feelings might want to, you know, show up

[22:01] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): Well, not a round table

[22:01] (Hedron) : because once again, you don’t really get deep

[22:01] (Hedron) : I’d rather talk to any one person

[22:01] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): but at least a moderated forum where people talk and spammers get kicked

[22:01] (Hedron) : or many people one at a time

[22:01] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): spammers get kicked here, bell

[22:01] (Hedron) : hell, I don’t even care if they’re getting a billion messages from the peanut gallery to push things along

[22:01] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): do it like an HOC so the people can read each other’s messages

[22:02] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): And we can moderate this channel for specific functions.

[22:02] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): There’s probably not going to be any objection to that.

[22:02] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): And if there is, let ’em query me into dust.

Session Start: Mon Feb 12 19:31:03 2001

[21:41] (Hedron) : Article up.

[21:41] 14(@Soulflame14): hmm.. I must read this, then I can come back here and mock Hedron.

[21:42] 14(@Soulflame14): hahahaha

[21:42] 14(@Soulflame14): Well, WP sure didn’t learn anything.

[21:42] 14(@Soulflame14): They don’t give a rip about 1v1 PvP.

[21:43] 14(@Soulflame14): Hedron, you said, “The ultimate destination of all PIGs is the post-max game. It\’e2\’80\’99s simply impractical and stupid to attempt to keep the entire population on the leveling treadmill forever.”

[21:43] 14(@Soulflame14): Funny that, some MUDs do just that.

[21:43] 14(@Soulflame14): and they do quite well.

[21:44] (Hedron) : with PVP?

[21:44] (Hedron) : and meaningful level benefits?

[21:44] (Hedron) : like new spells, and abilities

[21:44] (Hedron) : as opposed to just endlessly increasing HP?

[21:44] 14(@Soulflame14): who gives two rips about PvP other than some people who can’t get along with others?

[21:45] 01(Ithaqua`01): Soulflame, nice generalization.

\tab [21:45] 14(@Soulflame14): shut up ith

\tab [21:45] 01(Ithaqua`01): Shadowclan = biggest group of RPing PVPers in UO.

\tab [21:45] (Hedron) : lol

\tab [21:45] * Soulflame smiles sweetly

[21:45] 01(Pander01): Mixing RP, PvP, and the occasional PvE is the best way to go…

[21:45] 01(Pander01): Not just singularly encourage PvP.

[21:45] (Hedron) : no one soul

[21:45] (Hedron) : the direction of all PIGs right now is merely an illusion

[21:45] 14(@Soulflame14): yes Hedron

[21:45] 14(@Soulflame14): you are so right.

[21:45] * Soulflame snickers

[21:45] (Hedron) : go back to your navel contemplation 😉

[21:45] 14(@Soulflame14): whatever

[21:46] 14(@Einer14): …right. What about us players who have no interest in PvP?

[21:46] 14(@Soulflame14): you don’t exist, and if you did you are lesser players.

[21:46] 14(@Soulflame14): Remember?

[21:46] (Hedron) : Einer, no such thing. all players want pvp. 🙂 eventually. 🙂 In controlled doses meted out to their own specific tolerances 🙂

[21:47] 01(DanSTC01): Little heavy on the “:)”‘s eh?

[21:47] (Hedron) : I’m told I need to work on my attitude 🙂

[21:46] 14(@Soulflame14): NO.

[21:46] 14(@Soulflame14): They do not all want PvP.

[21:46] 01(Pander01): Yes, sure they do….

[21:47] * Pander rolls eyes into the back of his skull

[21:47] (Hedron) : yes they do 🙂

[21:47] 14(@Einer14): And it’s nice of you to tell me what I want.

[21:47] 14(@Einer14): I have no particular interest in crushing.

[21:47] 14(@Soulflame14): Hedron.

[21:47] 14(@Soulflame14): You are not me.

[21:47] 14(@Soulflame14): I do not want PvP.

[21:47] 01(Pander01): Um, did you ever even TRY UO, Hedron?

\tab [21:47] (Hedron) : lol, uh, yes, Pander.

\tab [21:47] 14(@Soulflame14): He had nothing to do with that train wreck.

\tab [21:47] 01(Pander01): more specifically, if you did, did you ever stray more than 3 screens\tab from the xroads?

\tab [21:47] 01(Pander01): If you were to, you’d find more than a handful of people who don’t \tab play to crush anything.

\tab [21:48] 01(Pander01): A great number of players I knew only fought in self defense, and \tab that was only GRUDGINGLY because they couldnt’ change it.

\tab [21:48] 14(@Einer14): I’m probably as close to pure explorer as you’ll find.

\tab [21:48] (Hedron) : Pander, did you ever read my 6 circles article?

\tab [21:49] (Hedron) : for those who think all I want is pvp

\tab [21:49] (Hedron) :

\tab [21:48] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Pander, he doesn’t debate their existence. He just debates \tab their right to exist.

\tab [21:48] 01(Pander01): Yes.

\tab [21:48] 14(@Einer14): And how do you explain LoH? She says she has no interest in PvP \tab\tab either. Is she simply misguided? Hasn’t found her true self yet?

\tab [21:49] 01(Pander01): Hedron, you said “all players want pvp. 🙂 eventually. 🙂 In \tab\tab controlled doses meted out to their own specific tolerances :)”

\tab [21:49] 01(Pander01): What are we to think

\tab [21:49] 01(Pander01): ?

\tab [21:50] 01(Pander01): If a player’s dose is 0, then maybe they don’t want pvp.

\tab [21:50] 14(@Soulflame14): I only fight back when attacked.

\tab [21:50] 14(@Soulflame14): Even then, I don’t want to fight.

\tab [21:48] (Hedron) : K, so I’m not going to debate that PVP is the only thing to do or want \tab to do when I’ve already overly-documented that I don’t think that

[21:48] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Your “six circles” book describes a good ten percent of the MMRPG population. Good job. Now go write something about the next 10%.

[21:49] 14(@Soulflame14): hahahaha, good one del

[21:49] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): It wasn’t a slam, soul.

[21:49] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): It was a compliment.

[21:50] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Perhaps a bit back-handed.

[21:50] (Hedron) : Delusion, actually nah, it describes them all

[21:50] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): It doesn’t describe me.

[21:50] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Either I’m not part of “all”, or your article doesn’t describe everyone.

[21:50] (Hedron) : ok, what does?

[21:51] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): I don’t approach these games as a PvP contest in any sense of the word. I recognize that many do.

[21:51] (Hedron) : ok

[21:52] (Hedron) : So what specifically describes your play style, del

[21:52] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): PvP doesn’t interest me because I don’t play frequently and obsessively enough to keep on the “tactics of the week” treadmill that having fun in PvP requires.

[21:52] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): (not that I don’t play obsessively, I just don’t play MMOG’s obsessively)

[21:52] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): That sounds achiever-esque

[21:54] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): “six circles” is an improvement over the oversimplified and overhyped bartle “four types”, I’ll grant you that

[21:54] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): But I don’t feel I “fit” into either scheme.

[21:52] 14(@Soulflame14): tactics, template, skills, equipment, all of the week.

[21:52] (Hedron) : That’s an AC phenomenon, delusion

[21:52] 14(@Soulflame14): no it isn’t

[21:52] 14(@Soulflame14): the same phenomena was observed in UO

[21:52] 01(Pander01): It’s UO too.

[21:52] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): It describes my UO exprience much better than my AC experience, Hedron.

[21:53] 14(@Soulflame14): Magic missile -> fireball-> lightning->harmwands->ebolts->archery

[21:53] 14(@Soulflame14): that was about the first 6 months

[21:53] 14(@Soulflame14): of UO

[21:53] 01(Pander01): AC is just much more pronounced because it operates on a regular schedule.

[21:53] 01(Pander01): “Okay, patch day, time to warm up that open spot

[21:54] (Hedron) : UO’s phenomenon was a result of patching

[21:54] (Hedron) : not design

[21:54] (Hedron) : which is why I mention AC

[21:54] (Hedron) : where it’s a phenomenon of design

[21:54] (Hedron) : on the other hand, I played NWN for about 4 years without any “tactic of the week” crap

[21:54] (Hedron) : and loved PVP every minute

[21:55] 01(Pander01): NWN was not an MMOG.

\tab [21:55] 01(Pander01): It didn’t have more than 4000 players.

\tab [21:55] 01(Pander01): As a result, it didn’t have the playerbase that current games do to \tab try to hack, exploit, and powergame to death.

\tab [21:55] 01(DanSTC01): So MMOG now connotes a certain number of people. OOOOKAAYYYY!

\tab [21:55] 01(DanSTC01): Nevermind that 70 people is technically a mass.

\tab [21:55] 01(Pander01): Dan: You know what I meant.

\tab [21:56] 01(Pander01): Current games are larger by several magnitutudes.

\tab [21:56] 01(DanSTC01): I suppose what you’re saying is that “massively” connotes commercial \tab bulk of some kind.

\tab [21:56] 01(DanSTC01): Nevermind that the largest factor to MMO games themselves are their \tab own player communities.

\tab [21:57] 01(Pander01): Dan: I was just comparing the 4k NWN to the 50k+ current games.

\tab [21:57] 01(DanSTC01): Pander> Then I’d have to disagree.

\tab [21:57] 01(Pander01): I really don’t need a fucking grammar and PC king to come up and \tab\tab bitch.

\tab [21:57] 01(DanSTC01): If MMOgaming were about numbers then counterstrike would fit that \tab category.

\tab [21:58] 01(Pander01): DAN: JESUS CHRIST, if you don’t understand what the fuck I meant, YOU\tab ARE DENSE>

\tab [21:58] 01(DanSTC01): I think you’re confusing the success level and amount of people in \tab the game world for what a MMO game is.

[21:54] 14(@Soulflame14): AC’s phenom was a result of patching

[21:54] 14(@Soulflame14): SB will have the same thing.

[21:54] 14(@Soulflame14): Due to patching.

[21:54] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): It’s not just patching, though, hedron…

[21:55] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): If players had a stable codebase in UO, tactics would still change.

[21:55] (Hedron) : Only during the early curve, Delusion

[21:55] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): In fact, if the code is stable, the changes are much, much more subtle, and harder for the casual follower to pick up on.

[21:55] (Hedron) : Still a temporary evolution, Delusion, and NOT an inherent part of PVP

[21:56] (Hedron) : If UO code never changed, and the game was in operation for 3 years (extreme number to make a point) all the tactics would be pretty much fleshed out

[21:56] (Hedron) : If you THEN started playing that game, you’d learn PVP without the constant reorientations

[21:56] (Hedron) : you would not feel like you’re shooting at a moving target so to speak

[21:56] 14(@Soulflame14): If UO code never changed, in three years the servers would be shut down.

[21:56] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): But not having a desire to PvP puts me at a severe disadvantage, I’d think.

[21:56] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): I really don’t enjoy PvP in these kinds of games. It doesn’t appeal to me.

[21:57] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): If I want fast action, I tend toward Tribes and such.

[21:57] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): So I tend to segregate my gaming by what I’m looking for.

[21:57] (Hedron) : well, it certainly places you behind someone who spends more time on it EARLY on

[21:57] (Hedron) : and you’ll never be the “best”

[21:57] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): Very true. The very desire to PvP has always put the PvPper at an advantage

[21:57] 14(@Soulflame14): Yep. If I want PvP, I go play an FPS.

[21:57] 14(@Soulflame14): where everyone is equal.

[21:57] 14(@Soulflame14): or at least more equal than in an MMOG

[21:57] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): Soul, I said as much in my threaded response to him

[21:57] (Hedron) : but you can easily be comeptitive, and in a game correctly designed to cater to many play styles, you could indulge in it at your liesure without all the angst

[21:57] 01(Pander01): FPS: Skill. MMOG: Time.

[21:57] 01(Pander01): Take your pick. I prefer using my skill over my time.

[21:57] 14(@Soulflame14): nope

[21:57] 14(@Soulflame14): MMOG is all about who can spend the most time,

[21:57] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): Not necessarily

[21:58] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): a MMOG is just a Multi player online game

[21:58] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): When you get into persistant state worlds and things mattering

[21:58] (Hedron) : Soulflame, it doesn’t have to be

[21:58] (Hedron) : that’s an illusion

[21:58] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): MMOGs don’t “add up” for me in a PvP context. Every one of them feels like PvP was added on the side like a pick up truck with extra-wide mirrors; no thought given to it in the design

[21:58] 14(@Soulflame14): Hedron: If an mmog goes static and unchanging, it DIES

[21:58] 14(@Soulflame14): The explorers quit

[21:58] 14(@Soulflame14): The achievers get bored

[21:59] 14(@Soulflame14): All that is left are the socializers and the fewlios that kill them.

[22:00] 01(DanSTC01): Soulflame> If static and unchanging means it dies, then explain EQ’s \tab success.

\tab [22:00] 14(@Soulflame14): EQ changes all the time Dan

\tab [22:00] 01(DanSTC01): I mean before the add-on packs.

\tab [22:00] 14(@Einer14): Dan – doesn’t EQ have a fairly long play cycle, though?

\tab [22:00] 14(@Soulflame14): They add expansions, they muck with class balance, they added \tab trade skills recently.

\tab [22:01] 14(@Einer14): The impression I got was that it’s hard to max a character in a \tab\tab reasonable length of time.

\tab [22:01] 01(DanSTC01): I mean before the expansions. Back when new land and items didnt \tab\tab manifest.

\tab [22:01] 14(@Soulflame14): EQ is not static.

\tab [22:01] 14(@Soulflame14): Yeah, but they were adding Planes even before the expansions.

\tab [22:01] 14(@Einer14): If you assume that someone’s going to play 3-4 characters before they \tab get bored and quit, EQ is going to last a lot longer than a game like UO.

\tab [22:01] 01(DanSTC01): Soul> Okay, you got me there.

\tab [22:02] 14(@Soulflame14): They didn’t need to add the expansions until enough people had \tab reached post max.

[22:02] (Hedron) : Soulflame, you’re dead on right there, they didn’t need to add it until later — EXCEPT! because they choose to have so many blue servers, unlike UO there’s not much for those people to do without the expansions

[22:03] (Hedron) : you need pvp to fill the gaps

[22:03] 01(Pander01): Hedron: Exploring how many…14 or so different classes…

[22:03] 14(@Soulflame14): PvP would ruin EQ completely Hedron.

[22:03] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Soul, you’re missing the real question.

[22:03] (Hedron) : not at all

[22:03] 01(Pander01): That’s not time consuming and stuff to do?

[22:03] 14(@Soulflame14): Yes it would.

[22:03] 01(DanSTC01): Personally this I what I think makes a MMO game: The communities that are drawn to the game world, how they can interact with that game world and with eachother, and how the communities around the game grows.

[22:03] 14(@Soulflame14): Hello, naked mages?

[22:03] (Hedron) : tallon zek is one of the most interesting servers to play

[22:04] (Hedron) : irrelevant on a coin-loot only server

[22:04] 01(Bell_of_Ygg01): How many people play there?

[22:04] (Hedron) : as many as any other servere

[22:04] 14(@Soulflame14): The only thing PvP allows is more grief play.

[22:04] 14(@Soulflame14): Period.

[22:04] 14(@Soulflame14): Especially in EQ

[22:05] 14(@Soulflame14): Hey look, a level 5 at the newbie grounds. Watch him wipe them all out.

[22:04] (Hedron) : lol

[22:04] (Hedron) : oh man

[22:04] (Hedron) : s’killing me

[22:04] (Hedron) : Soulflame, you can’t support that statement

[22:04] (Hedron) : And you know it

[22:05] 14(@Soulflame14): Yes, actually, I can hedron.

[22:05] (Hedron) : not a chance, soul 😉

[22:05] 14(@Soulflame14): Right.

[22:05] 01(Pander01): Not a chance?

[22:05] 01(Pander01): I hope that’s sarcasm.

[22:05] (Hedron) : nope

[22:05] 14(@Soulflame14): No, he sincerely thinks he is the only one who knows.

[22:05] 01(Pander01): Siege Perilous is a good thing.

[22:05] 01(Pander01): EQ PvP IS NOT>

[22:06] 01(Pander01): I tried and failed for 2 months straight to get a character past level 10 on a PvP shard.

[22:05] 14(@Soulflame14): I simply stand in awe of his ego.

[22:06] 14(@Soulflame14): Hell, even in FPS you get grief play, lots of it.

[22:05] (Hedron) : let me put it this way, soul

[22:06] (Hedron) : I take it as gospel that in any given case where two extremes are advocated, the truth lies somewhere in between.

[22:06] (Hedron) : And I support the in between

[22:06] (Hedron) : you don’t

[22:06] (Hedron) : so I know you’re wrong, soul 😉

[22:06] 01(J__01): I think what Heddy means is that if you give enough thought to the design of PvP, then there are ways to make it so griefing doesn’t become the thing with such a wide appeal.

[22:06] 01(J__01): Problem is, how do you do that?

[22:06] 14(@Soulflame14): Not a chance J

[22:06] 14(@Soulflame14): If you allow one person to kill another online, people will abuse it.

[22:07] 14(@Soulflame14): I mean, look at diablo for crying out loud.

[22:06] 01(Pander01): Giving rules to un-checked PvP is rather contradictory…

[22:06] 01(Pander01): And so far has failed miserablyl.

[22:06] 01(J__01): Doesn’t need rules.

[22:07] 01(J__01): Needs encouragement.

[22:07] 01(J__01): Needs to be a giver not a taker.

[22:07] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): encouragement without code is a waste

[22:07] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): UO was an proof enough of that.

[22:07] 01(Pander01): Encouraging is two things:

[22:07] 01(Pander01): Punishment and reward.

[22:07] 01(Pander01): And companies would much rather set up rules and punishment than rewards.

[22:07] 01(Pander01): Because you can exploit rewards.

[22:07] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): If you encourage people to do one thing, but allow them to do another, your encouragement is piss in the wind.

[22:07] (Hedron) : ok…

[22:07] (Hedron) : you read Raph’s response on my string, Soul?

[22:07] (Hedron) : You note the MUD expirement he talked about?

[22:07] (Hedron) : Where he says their little expirement has led to zero PVP?

[22:07] 14(@Soulflame14): No, not yet.

[22:07] 14(@Soulflame14): I haven’t read everything yet Hedron.

[22:07] 14(@Soulflame14): I thought I would just butt heads with you again.

[22:07] 01(DanSTC01): Look. In a non mmo-game you can always leave and move onto another server. In a MMO game, griefing affects the entire game world because everyone now has to deal with the same moron whether they like it or not.

[22:07] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): (this is great if you’re encouraging them to do bad things, it rarely works that way)

[22:07] (Hedron) : lol

[22:08] (Hedron) : Soulflame, you’re just a convert waiting to happen (big wide grin)

[22:08] 14(@Soulflame14): “Here we see the two bulls struggling for dominance.”

[22:08] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): oh brother

[22:08] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): I’ve had Christians talk to me like that, Hedron.

[22:08] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Spare me that aspect.

[22:08] 01(Pander01): HAHA

[22:08] (Hedron) : ROFLMAO!

[22:08] (Hedron) : HAAHAHAHAH!

[22:08] (Hedron) : ah

[22:08] (Hedron) : I like that.

[22:09] * DanSTC thinks he just choked up his japanese food dinner.

[22:08] 14(@Soulflame14): good one del :):))))))))))

[22:08] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): You were doing better when you were discussing the game rather than conversion.

[22:08] 01(Kranrev01): Pastor Hedron, priest of ganking

[22:09] (Hedron) : (shrug) I have never heard an argument against PVP that given the time I couldn’t dismantle

[22:09] 14(@Soulflame14): I haven’t heard one for PvP that I couldn’t dismantle.

[22:09] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): How about this one: No appeal.

[22:09] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): How do I ‘get around’ the fact that I simply don’t enjoy PvP in an MMOG?

[22:10] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): That’s not a snotty question, just a very open one.

[22:10] (Hedron) : Delusion|Nethack, I’d disect why you don’t enjoy it and (most likely based on past experience) find that most of your negative reactions have come from poorly designed PVP

[22:11] (Hedron) : however

[22:09] 01(Pander01): Still, it’s a simple equation. MMOG:TIME::FPS:SKILL

[22:09] 01(Pander01): I don’t have the time to PvP in MMOG.

[22:09] (Hedron) : Pander, doesn’t have to be

[22:09] 01(Pander01): But it is, and it will be.

[22:09] (Hedron) : nah

[22:09] (Hedron) : hasn’t been in the past

[22:09] (Hedron) : won’t be again in the future

[22:09] 01(Pander01): The closest one to skill was UO.

[22:09] 01(Pander01): It has a set maximum…

[22:10] 01(Pander01): That can be reached in a short amount of time.

[22:09] 01(DanSTC01): PVP is great. But only when the participants are willing. 😛

[22:10] 01(Pander01): Willing participants = blue shard PKs.

[22:10] (Hedron) : DanSTC, right, but that’s totally do-able

[22:10] 01(Kranrev01): Fair PvP is fun. There will most likely not be a MMORPG with fair PvP in the forseable future

[22:10] 01(Kranrev01): one on one, guild on guild, thats good stuff

[22:10] 01(Dracleath01): Well, if you had a game that you could actually max out in 50 hours or so, it might have more of a chance to be more skill-based

\tab [22:11] 01(Pander01): If PvP were a contest of skill, and not simple connection and time invested…

\tab [22:11] 01(Pander01): It might be worth doing.

\tab [22:11] 01(Pander01): And if it had sizable, tangible rewards beyond the next meal…

\tab [22:11] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): drac, I’ve seen a lot of people who could do more with a 5 minute newbie character than I could with a hacked Seer character

\tab [22:11] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): There’s clearly a lot of user skill involved.

\tab [22:11] 14(@Soulflame14): Hell, Hedron’s guild beat down a nearly invulnerable GM.

\tab [22:12] 14(@Soulflame14): The UO seers were almost constantly getting ganked in the Trinsic event.

\tab [22:12] 14(@Soulflame14): Even though they had more mana and health.

\tab [22:12] 01(Dracleath01): I was referring more to EQ and AC pvp than UO with that, my UO experience in pvp is pretty limited

[22:11] (Hedron) : It’s a given that not every player adores PVP as their number one play choice

[22:11] (Hedron) : never said it was

[22:11] 01(Pander01): You said it was their only choice after a while.

[22:12] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Hedron: Part of it – a lot of it – is because I have a very strict sense of fair play, and I’ve not met many people who would care to adhere to it.

[22:13] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): If I play chess, I don’t accidentally spill water on my opponent to distract him while I move my bishop. That sort of thing.

[22:13] (Hedron) : Delusion|Nethack, again, that’s NOT an inherent aspect of PVP, that’s a design issue

[22:13] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): That’s clearly a user issue unless you have iron-tight code.

[22:14] 01(Kranrev01): People cheating is not a design issue, its a technical one

[22:13] 14(@Soulflame14): but if you hedge pvp with so many restrictions, why bother?

[22:13] 14(@Soulflame14): Why not just set up a dueling pit and be done with it?

[22:13] (Hedron) : that’s a non specific statement, soul

[22:14] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): I’m not talking about hedging, soul.

[22:14] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): I’m not talking about artificial Chesapeake-esque restrictions.

[22:14] 14(@Soulflame14): Hedron is though.

[22:14] (Hedron) : why not do both, soul?

[22:14] 01(DanSTC01): Soul> because that would mean the pvpers would actually have to face the idea that they might lose the fight.

[22:14] 14(@Soulflame14): exactly, Dan!

[22:15] 14(@Soulflame14): no one likes to lose, and fair fights don’t figure into any sort of PvP I have ever witnessed in an MMOG, with only a few exceptions.

[22:15] 14(@Soulflame14): And all those exceptions were ROLEPLAYED.

[22:14] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): “You may loot me on the third Tuesday of any week with a holiday, but you may not touch my carrots.”

[22:14] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Not that sort of thing.

[22:15] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): I’m talking more generally. I have no patience for people abusing my sense of fair play which – among other things – includes that neither person be running any sort of optional client extentions.

[22:15] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Try finding a guild full of people who consider UOA cheating.

[22:15] (Hedron) : heh

[22:15] (Hedron) : k, try this

[22:15] (Hedron) : all the blue servers in EQ have no PVP, but they have a “duel” option

[22:15] (Hedron) : when you invoke it, it’s you against the other guy, no interferrence

[22:16] 14(@Soulflame14): And from what I remember of those duels, most people would zone rather than lose.

[22:16] (Hedron) : Soulflame, zoning IS losing

[22:16] 14(@Soulflame14): I know that Hedron.

[22:16] 14(@Soulflame14): But at least they lived.

[22:17] 01(DanSTC01): Hedron> But they dont lose their ph4t l3wt.

[22:17] 01(DanSTC01): Or their bodies.


[22:15] 01(Pander01): Basically, if there were open PvP in an MMOG, I’d want everyone to have the equivalent of loaded guns. That way a person thinking of peekaying someone would think twice before going off.

[22:15] 01(Pander01): I want to sit on a bench, like I did in UO, outside of a tower with nobody else around, and not worry about someone killing me for pretty much no reason.

[22:16] 01(Pander01): But you see…

[22:16] 01(Pander01): I like RP PvP combat.

[22:16] 01(Pander01): We had numerous STRONG RP PvP groups…

[22:16] 01(Pander01): SAS, Warlords…

[22:17] 01(Pander01): So PvP wasn’t a banned, shunned practice.

[22:16] 14(@Soulflame14): THE WARLORDS

[22:16] 14(@Soulflame14): Oh Strife, where are you…

[22:16] 01(Kranrev01): Right. The only time I PvPed for fun rather than hate or revenge in UO was with the Shadowclan

[22:16] (Hedron) : Pander, I agree. Which is why I always advocated geographic separation of player types

[22:16] 14(@Soulflame14): You cannot separate player types, that would kill the game.

[22:17] (Hedron) : Soulflame, you can and must. But you HAVE to provide sufficient reason for player types to cross the boundaries

[22:17] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Hedron’s not a big fan of loot.

[22:17] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Abuse him for his beliefs, not others’.

[22:17] 14(@Soulflame14): Loot is a terrible thing.

[22:17] (Hedron) : loot = the cancer of PVP

[22:17] 14(@Soulflame14): Loot, levels, and exploits.

[22:17] 14(@Soulflame14): Those are the cancer of PvP.

[22:17] 01(Pander01): I just want a system where people would go “I bet this guy wouldn’t be worth the effect and danger to kill”…

[22:17] 01(Pander01): Only multiply that so it affects everyone.

[22:17] 01(Pander01): Make it so that the PKers are a rare few who are willing to risk everything.

[22:17] 01(Pander01): They need something. But they need the knowledge that what they are doing can get them hurt in numerous ways…

[22:18] 01(Pander01): Ways that neither I nor MMOG designers have thought of yet.

[22:18] (Hedron) : Pander, no way

[22:18] (Hedron) : you do NOT want any enjoyable aspect of play to be so painful that only a select few can and will indulge

[22:18] (Hedron) : you want to provide a significant ability for each player type to play their type of game without undue interferrence

[22:19] (Hedron) : while at the same time encouraging a crossing of types to provide interest and diversity

[22:19] 14(@Soulflame14): We have seen what interferance can do to a game Hedron.

[22:19] 14(@Soulflame14): CF UO

[22:18] 01(Pander01): Yes way.

[22:18] 01(Pander01): Why would you kill someone?

[22:18] 01(Pander01): Why would you fight someone? Land, religion, loot, and revenge.

[22:18] 14(@Soulflame14): I have no idea why I would fight someone in an MMOG, other than they attacked me, or one of my guildmates.

[22:18] 01(DanSTC01): Pander> Loot, bragging rights, grief, fun, etc.

[22:19] 01(Pander01): Out of those, the players who PK consistently are in it only for loot.

[22:19] 01(Pander01): The question is “Why would you kill another player.”

[22:19] 01(Pander01): Until you answer that question well, the answer remains Loot.,

[22:19] 01(DanSTC01): Really? Even the ones in it for fun or bragging rights?

[22:19] 01(Pander01): Dan: Fun maybe…

[22:20] 01(Pander01): But not serious characters.

[22:20] 01(Pander01): Most good PvPers wouldn’t do it solely for fun.

[22:20] 01(DanSTC01): Well all in all I think PVP is fun..and since it’s hard to make a game balanced for PVE AND PVP, why not make a game entirely made for PvP?

[22:21] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): Dan: They do do that.

[22:21] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): They just haven’t done it in an MRPG.

[22:19] (Hedron) : Soulflame, do you play any head-to-head games?

[22:19] 14(@Soulflame14): me?

[22:19] 14(@Soulflame14): rarely

[22:19] 14(@Soulflame14): I very rarely play vs humans.

[22:20] 14(@Soulflame14): Even in Starcraft, I preferred to team against the computer.

[22:20] (Hedron) : I didn’t ask if you rarely played them… what DO you play human vs. human?

[22:20] 14(@Soulflame14): AoE II mostly

[22:20] 14(@Soulflame14): err…

[22:20] 14(@Soulflame14): RTS

[22:20] 14(@Soulflame14): that is about it

[22:20] 14(@Soulflame14): FPS

[22:20] (Hedron) : K, what characterizes what you enjoy about AOE ii, soul

[22:20] 14(@Soulflame14): uhm… crushing all beneath my army?

[22:20] (Hedron) : lol

[22:21] (Hedron) : Why is AOE2 fun in combat and not PIGs, soul? Contrast them for me

[22:21] 14(@Soulflame14): Oh that is easy.

[22:21] 14(@Soulflame14): Too much investment in a MMOG character.

[22:21] 01(Dracleath01): In AOE2 you start fresh every 2 hours or so

[22:21] 14(@Soulflame14): exactly!

[22:21] (Hedron) : why is investment in a character a problem for pvp, soul?

[22:21] (Hedron) : (gonna stick with Soul on this issue guys, don’t want to fall off the track)

[22:21] 14(@Soulflame14): …

[22:22] 14(@Soulflame14): For me, the loss of loot is hard.

[22:22] (Hedron) : Soulflame, what if there’s no looting?

[22:22] 14(@Soulflame14): If there was no looting, far too many people would complain.

[22:22] 14(@Soulflame14): I would not mind losing if there was no looting.

[22:22] 14(@Soulflame14): As much.

[22:23] (Hedron) : Soulflame, nah, far too many people complain no matter what you do. That’s not admissable evidence. 😉 What if there was no looting?

[22:23] 14(@Soulflame14): But dying is a huge setback in an MMOG for most people.

[22:23] 01(Pander01): Explain someone’s motivation to kill Soulflame if they can’t loot him.

[22:23] 01(Pander01): If he can’t be looted, they wouldn’t kill him in the first place except out of spite…

[22:23] 01(Pander01): And even then it’s not that big of a problem, he could just reloot.

[22:23] 01(Pander01): So there you have it…either no random Pking, or full random pking.

[22:23] 14(@Soulflame14): True

[22:23] 14(@Soulflame14): The REASON to pvp would be far lessened.

[22:23] (Hedron) : Soulflame, it doesn’t HAVE to be a huge setback, does it?

[22:23] (Hedron) : I mean, that’s an adjustment of the equalizer so to speak

[22:23] (Hedron) : It’s NOT an inherent part of pvp

[22:23] 14(@Soulflame14): There we reach a different argument: should there be punishment for death.

[22:23] 01(Pander01): No, not PvP.

[22:24] 01(Pander01): But PK, yes.

[22:24] (Hedron) : Soulflame, but you like AOE2 pvp… you get no loot there….

[22:24] 01(Dracleath01): So how does Tallon Zek fit into this, since it is effectively a pvp environment with no loot?

[22:24] 01(Pander01): Hedron: You can’t seperate PK from PvP.

[22:24] 01(Pander01): And until you do, there will be players who don’t like PvP.

[22:24] 14(@Soulflame14): true, but everyone is there for PVP

[22:24] 14(@Soulflame14): Not everyone is in UO for PvP

[22:24] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): So instead of adding PvP to a social MUD, maybe the real question is how do you add RPG and social elements to an FPS.

[22:24] (Hedron) : well, let’s not veer to death penalties quite yet, soul, but we can go there if you want in a bit

[22:24] 14(@Soulflame14): in a bit

[22:24] 14(@Soulflame14): In an AOE game, everyone is there to fight.

[22:24] (Hedron) : true

[22:25] (Hedron) : so?

[22:25] 14(@Soulflame14): In an MMOG, most people are not there to fight.

[22:25] 14(@Soulflame14): They are there to level, to socialize, to make stuff.

[22:25] (Hedron) : ok…. but so what?

[22:25] 01(DanSTC01): What’s Hedrons main argument anyway? I think we’ve lost track.

[22:25] (Hedron) : We’re basically working on the idea that there’s no benefit to pvp at all and that it only leads to griefing, right?

[22:25] (Hedron) : We’ve covered that you like pvp in some genres

[22:26] (Hedron) : and that looting really turns you off to pig combat

[22:26] 14(@Soulflame14): I enjoy PvP when all parties agree to PvP

[22:26] 14(@Soulflame14): I have had hella fun in UO when we agreed to fight the Warlords during the Sindls flame story.

[22:26] (Hedron) : so we’ve introduced the idea of no loot

[22:26] (Hedron) : you responded with the idea that not everyone is there to pvp… but ok… how does that affect the point?

[22:26] 14(@Soulflame14): I agree that looting reduces the grief aspect.

[22:26] 14(@Soulflame14): There are still people who will waste you just because they can.

[22:27] (Hedron) : ok, so you don’t like looting, soul, and you don’t like non-consentual pvp

[22:27] 14(@Soulflame14): Yes

[22:27] (Hedron) : alright, so let’s try this

[22:27] (Hedron) : let’s say that there’s no looting, and that whenever you were attacked if you didn’t want to fight all you had to do was sit down.

[22:27] (Hedron) : you were then invulnerable

[22:27] (Hedron) : but if you struck back before sitting, you lost that option

[22:27] (Hedron) : now all pvp is consentual

[22:27] 14(@Soulflame14): that would be good. but it is also exploitable.

[22:27] 01(Pander01): Not really.

[22:28] 01(Pander01): You don’t consent to PvP.

[22:28] 01(Pander01): And you have to go WILDLY out of your way to stop it.

[22:28] 01(Pander01): It’s a major inconvenience to you, and they can just keep attacking you all they want.

[22:28] 14(@Soulflame14): no

[22:28] 14(@Soulflame14): Some newbie could run up, hit you, you hit back, then a guild steps in and smooshes you.

[22:28] 14(@Soulflame14): you can’t sit down, because you hit back.

[22:28] (Hedron) : well, let’s not dig into exploits soul. I believe that you CAN eliminate exploits with proper attention to detail, so although some off the cuff solutions discussed here could be exploitable, let’s just say we can avoid that with proper thought

[22:28] 01(Pander01): It’s just an impromptu thought, sure…

[22:28] 14(@Soulflame14): How do you eliminate that loophole?

[22:28] 01(Delusion|Nethack01): proper thought?

[22:28] 01(DanSTC01): hedron> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[22:29] 01(DanSTC01): As long as there are PLAYERS, there will be EXPLOITERS.

[22:29] 01(Pander01): Exploits are always present.

[22:29] (Hedron) : Soulflame, actually, you do what I’ve always advocated

[22:29] (Hedron) : you have pvp areas and non-pvp areas

[22:29] (Hedron) : you make the majority of the game focus on the post-max game

[22:29] (Hedron) : thus there are no big-strong-guy-ganks you

[22:30] (Hedron) : and you make combat prolonged enough and escapable enough that if you’re dramatically out-matched, you can just recall out or whatever

[22:29] 01(Pander01): Sounds rather like Camelot.

[22:29] 01(Pander01): But sometimes we want a mix.

[22:29] 01(Pander01): Like in RP PvP wars.

[22:29] 01(Pander01): And really, there isn’t that big a problem with that..

[22:30] 01(Pander01): However, some people, EVEN AT HIGH LEVELS, don’t want to PvP.

[22:30] 01(Pander01): So you shouldn’t FOCUS on PvP…

[22:29] 14(@Soulflame14): See Trammel and Felucca.

[22:29] 14(@Soulflame14): it doesn’t work

[22:30] 14(@Soulflame14): That is a huge problem in all PvP so far, it ends too quickly.

[22:30] 14(@Soulflame14): You can kill someone in all three (except maybe EQ) in about 5 seconds.

[22:30] (Hedron) : ok, on the geographic separation, I’ve said this about 20 times, but I’ll say it again. The UO solution was DUMB. That’s about the most moronic way to use geographic separation that I can imagine

\tab\tab [22:31] (Hedron) : it’s like sitting down and saying “if we wanted geographic separation, what’s the dumbest way we could do it?”

\tab [22:30] 01(Pander01): But you advocate the SAME EXACT THING.

\tab [22:31] 01(Pander01): A PvP and a non-PvP zone.

\tab [22:32] 01(Pander01): How can you advocate geological seperation, yet also hate an implementation of it?

\tab [22:32] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): pander…

\tab [22:32] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): I advocate lots of things I hate particular instances of.

\tab [22:34] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): You can make campaign finance reform by reverting to a communist state.

\tab [22:32] 01(Pander01): It’s the only instance so far though.

\tab [22:32] 01(Pander01): There are no other examples.

\tab [22:33] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): So if you agree with campaign finance reform, the first solution is “right” even if it’s totally the opposite way you’d accomplish it?

\tab [22:34] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): So if you hate communism, you hate campaign finance reform?

\tab [22:34] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): It’s a logical fallacy.

[22:30] 01(DanSTC01): Soul> So you’re saying that battles should last for hours?

[22:30] 01(Pander01): UO takes longer if it’s 1 on 1…

[22:30] 14(@Soulflame14): not hours

[22:30] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): It tends to the extreme, soul…

[22:31] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): EIther seconds, or it drags on via innumerable heals.

[22:31] 14(@Soulflame14): Pander, I have seen someone kill another in 5 seconds.

[22:31] 14(@Soulflame14): This was back during precasting.

[22:31] 14(@Soulflame14): expl + eb, hally hit, target eb.

[22:31] 14(@Soulflame14): 5 seconds.

[22:31] 14(@Soulflame14): Besides, 1v1 pvp is rare.

[22:31] 14(@Soulflame14): Why risk losing?

[22:31] 01(Pander01): Soulflame: it’s possible if the skills are HIGHLY unequal…

[22:31] 01(Pander01): But generally, unless they both are mana dumping monkeys, someone’ll live.

[22:31] 01(DanSTC01): Well I got news for you bub. Two guys of equal level who can hardly hit eachother usually amounts to sheer tedium.

[22:31] 01(DanSTC01): And most people prefer the 5-second battle. That way they can strip the corpse faster and move onto the next victim.

[22:32] (Hedron) : 1on1 pvp can be made available either through a code change, or player convention, or an arena or whatever

[22:32] (Hedron) : there used to be duels ALL THE TIME in uo

[22:32] 14(@Soulflame14): all that is fine. but if you allow pvp at any time, then people will abuse it.

[22:33] (Hedron) : true, but again, soul, that’s NOT an inherent fact of PVP, that’s an example of a specific implementation

[22:33] (Hedron) : that’s like saying “all PVP is bad because everyone is killed in one hit” …. that’s only if you make a game where everyone can be killed in one hit… it has nothing directly to do with pvp

[22:33] 14(@Soulflame14): It IS an inherant fact of PvP.

[22:33] 14(@Soulflame14): Cheating allows you to win.

[22:33] 14(@Soulflame14): Or to achieve equal footing.

[22:34] 14(@Soulflame14): In UO, many pvpers strove for 1 hitters.

[22:34] (Hedron) : Soulflame, it’s not an inherent fact in AOE2 is it?

[22:34] 14(@Soulflame14): Actually, there is a setting to disallow cheats in AOE.

[22:34] 14(@Soulflame14): Chew on that, Hedron.

[22:34] (Hedron) : right

[22:34] (Hedron) : that’s my point

[22:34] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): soul: only the “built in” cheats

[22:34] 14(@Soulflame14): Right

[22:35] 14(@Soulflame14): As far as I know, there are no external cheats.

[22:35] 14(@Soulflame14): But I only play with Lumcorp, so I haven’t had any exposure to cheaters. I think. 😛

[22:35] (Hedron) : you CAN create an environment without the pit falls that you so detest, soul

[22:35] (Hedron) : and without all the idiocy that so many over-complicated solutions have introduced in the past

[22:35] 01(Pander01): But they haven’t.

[22:35] 01(Pander01): Because it’s TOO DAMN HARD.

[22:35] 01(Pander01): PvP will remain flawed.

[22:35] 14(@Soulflame14): I agree with Pander

[22:35] 14(@Soulflame14): These implementations are so complex that they will have code weaknesses.

[22:36] 14(@Soulflame14): In an MMOG, PvP will ALWAYS lead to griefing.

[22:35] 01(Pander01): Face it Hedron…until you go and make your own perfect game, no company is going to spend the time to balance PvP and make it the focus of post-max play.

[22:36] 01(Pander01): Not Verant, not Wolfpack, not Mythic…

[22:35] * DanSTC watches soulflame and hedron run around in circles nipping at their own tails…..

[22:35] 01(DanSTC01): Did any of this have a point?

[22:35] (Hedron) : Well, sure, Dan

[22:36] (Hedron) : as far as I’m concerned, we started this disucssion with Soulflame saying that PVP has no use at all other than creating grief play

[22:36] (Hedron) : so far we’ve determined that PVP is good in AOE2

[22:36] (Hedron) : that it could be good in PIGs for him without looting, non-consentual PVP, and cheating

[22:36] (Hedron) : all attainable goals

[22:37] * Soulflame shrugs

[22:37] 14(@Soulflame14): No one is making that game.

[22:37] (Hedron) : that’s like saying having retail stores leads to shop lifting, so close all the stores

[22:38] 14(@Soulflame14): People have solved… welll sorta, the shoplifting problem in stores.

[22:38] 14(@Soulflame14): You get caught, you get punished.

[22:38] 14(@Soulflame14): People get away scotfree with horrific things in MMOGs.

[22:38] 14(@Soulflame14): Part of that is design, part is administration, part is fuct.

[22:38] (Hedron) : that’s just an environmental issue, soul

[22:38] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): You can’t have an even playing field in a game until everyone agrees on what that playing field is OR unless someone’s powerful enough to enforce it.

[22:39] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): And you can’t enforce what people run on their computers.

[22:39] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): Microsoft, IBM, and plenty of other companies have learned that the hard way.

[22:38] 14(@Soulflame14): YES

[22:39] 14(@Soulflame14): PvP works in a FPS

[22:39] 14(@Soulflame14): We have established that.

[22:39] (Hedron) : To me, arguing this is so academic, because the bottom line is that I played NWN for 4 years with consentual, non-loot, clean PVP. It’s already been done.

[22:39] (Hedron) : So to argue that it can’t be done is spurious

[22:39] 14(@Soulflame14): But Hedron, none of the games coming on the market are going to do that.

[22:39] 01(DanSTC01): HERE’S A CLUE: In a MMOgame NOT EVERYONE expects EVERYONE ELSE to be a cold-blooded MURDERER out for their spleen! In a FPS/RTS multiplayer game, “PVP” is the game ITSELF.

[22:40] 14(@Soulflame14): what dan said.

[22:40] (Hedron) : Dan

[22:40] (Hedron) : if you and I are in a PIG in a non-pvp area…

[22:40] (Hedron) : who cares?

[22:40] (Hedron) : if I go into a known PVP area, then I DO EXPECT IT

[22:40] (Hedron) : right?

[22:40] 01(J__01): Hedron: if I’m not mistaken, in NWN you could run away from /any/ fight.

[22:40] 01(J__01): and the hard-core PvP areas were geographically situated far away from the central gathering point.

[22:42] 01(J__01): and in the end, players that kept running away could eventually just start pvping out of curiosity?

[22:40] (Hedron) : J__, most any fight, yah

[22:41] (Hedron) : J__, there were some pvp areas right around the corner from major spots, but most were in the veteran areas, yah

[22:42] (Hedron) : J__, yep

[22:41] 14(@Soulflame14): I thought that pvp in NWN was an accident.

[22:42] 14(@Soulflame14): A flaw, if you will, in the codebase.

[22:42] (Hedron) : So’s the evolution of life 😉

[22:42] 01(J__01): it was a flaw according to the original developers, but the players came up with their own code of conduct, and it stayed in.

[22:42] 14(@Soulflame14): at anyrate.

[22:42] 14(@Soulflame14): Yes, I would possibly enjoy an MMOG with no looting, no cheating, and no non-consentual pvp.

[22:42] 14(@Soulflame14): Is anyone MAKING that game? No.

[22:43] (Hedron) : Soulflame, somebody will make it if they keep reading all the crap I keep spewing (laugh)

[22:43] 14(@Soulflame14): heh

[22:43] 14(@Soulflame14): I certainly hope so, I might like that game.

[22:42] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): Here you can PvP, here you can’t. The only people who lose in a strict geographically separated game are those who were hoping for a more fluid context and voluntary gameplay within those context.

[22:46] 14(@Soulflame14): In the current gen of games, and sadly in the next gen, no one is making that game. And people will continue to use PvP as a grief tool.

[22:46] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): People make what the market supports.

[22:46] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): The market supports crap without punishing those who make it.

[22:47] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): Ergo, the next generation will be crap if the suits control the strings.

[22:47] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): People bitch and moan about OSI and Verant and AC, and handsomely reward them every month.

[22:47] 14(@Soulflame14): Right you are del.

[22:48] 14(@Soulflame14): Yep

[22:48] 14(@Soulflame14): I don’t even play UO…

[22:48] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): Here’s a hint: without any cost of failure, there is no advancement

[22:48] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): Just prettier graphics.

[22:48] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): And we all know that prettier graphics and kung-fu animation fix a game’s fundamentals.

[22:48] 14(@Soulflame14): We can’t get people to quit Del. They want their hit.

[22:48] 14(@Soulflame14): You forgot DANCE

[22:48] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): dance, kung-fu

[22:48] 14(@Delusion|NetHack14): don’t split hares

[22:51] 14(@Soulflame14): In the current gen of games, and sadly in the next gen, no one is making that game. And people will continue to use PvP as a grief tool.

[22:52] (Hedron) : well

[22:52] (Hedron) : That remains to be seen, soul

[22:52] (Hedron) : SB has some interesting stuff

[22:52] (Hedron) : creating safe zones around player run cities based on spheres of influence

[22:52] 14(@Soulflame14): SB has non-consentual pvp

[22:52] 14(@Soulflame14): Train wreck, here we come.

[22:52] 14(@Soulflame14): no hedron

[22:52] 14(@Soulflame14): that was UO’s mistake

[22:53] 14(@Soulflame14): Players will not police themselves.

[22:53] (Hedron) : it’s not based on merely players

[22:53] (Hedron) : sb cities have NPC support

[22:53] (Hedron) : you establish the city and set up NPC guards

[22:53] 14(@Soulflame14): GM cities have safe zones.

[22:53] 14(@Soulflame14): Player cities.. yes, but that is an expense.

[22:53] 14(@Soulflame14): and probably a sizeable one.

[22:53] (Hedron) : true, but it will be used

[22:53] (Hedron) : because it also serves as the defense against invasion, soul

[22:54] (Hedron) : so you will need to have them

[22:54] 14(@Soulflame14): heh

[22:54] 14(@Soulflame14): invasion

[22:54] 14(@Soulflame14): That will be interesting to see.

End of line.